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[Faust06]

I guess she gotta pour some more fuel on the fire that keeps her career going.

This is perhaps the shittiest thing you've ever said, Nillo.

It seemed tongue-in-cheek to me. Are we not admitting that controversy (i.e. the senseless hate) is just as much the reason we're now having a movie as the value of her work?

[Dragonmaw]

It's just shitty to say that she's purposefully keeping a harassment movement going, rather than saying she turned a shitty situation outside her control into a positive.

[Faust06]

It's just shitty to say that she's purposefully keeping a harassment movement going, rather than saying she turned a shitty situation outside her control into a positive.

It would be absurd. Nobody sane would purposefully perpetuate harassment on themselves. Which is why I thought it was more in jest or flippant than some kind of affront.

[s0]

Are we not admitting that controversy (i.e. the senseless hate) is just as much the reason we're now having a movie as the value of her work?

yeah but what's so bad about that? she got harassed on the internet and managed to turn the situation around completely. i would try to do the same thing if i had an internet hate mob against me.

if gamergaters think her success is undeserved, they only have themselves to blame. B)

[Nillo]

This is perhaps the shittiest thing you've ever said, Nillo.

I'm sorry I don't have much sympathy for an outed abuser, dude. Especially when they enjoy widespread support from social justice activists who should know better.

[Faust06]

I'm sorry I don't have much sympathy for an outed abuser, dude. Especially when they enjoy widespread support from social justice activists who should know better.

I have a feeling, if this will be is anything like other biopics today, that she won't be flawless in her portrayal.

[Dacke]

It would be absurd. Nobody sane would purposefully perpetuate harassment on themselves. Which is why I thought it was more in jest or flippant than some kind of affront.

People may very well do things that increase the risk of continued harassment.

For example: Harassment is often an attempt to silence people. Some brave people refuse to be silenced and choose to speak up about the harassment. This obviously increases the risk of continued harassment.

To a reasonable person, it should be pretty obvious that the harassers carry 100% of the blame and the harassed person has no responsibility to reduce the risk of being harassed.

But there are lots of horrible people who say that, no, if you have a possibility to reduce the risk of getting harassed you should take it or you have yourself to blame when the harassment continues.

This is a form of victim blaming.

[Dragonmaw]

This is perhaps the shittiest thing you've ever said, Nillo.

I'm sorry I don't have much sympathy for an outed abuser, dude. Especially when they enjoy widespread support from social justice activists who should know better.

Which is why you support Gamergate, a movement literally comprised of abusers that harass people ~in the public eye~.

Like Zoe's past is fucked up I'm not gonna lie, but knowing her personally now she's a lot better person. Can you say the same for the people continuing to keep GG alive? The most prominent voices in GG?

Calling ZQ an abuser when you literally support a movement built on abuse is not just cognitive dissonance, that's outright hypocrisy. There is no aspect of GG that is not built on the repeated and continuous abuse of people it disagrees with.

[s0]

also you can be a *not so great person* and still be a victim of harassment. those 2 things are not mutually exclusive. and let's not pretend that this didn't blow up like it did because zoe quinn is a feminist involved with videogames.

[gimymblert]

Her ex boyfriend was supposedly a feminist too so welp, yay for feminist men, I should not let my guard down and think I'm better, I advise all men to do the same.

[Nillo]

also you can be a *not so great person* and still be a victim of harassment. those 2 things are not mutually exclusive.

Right. I think that happens a lot with serious wrongdoings such as emotional and physical abuse, actually. It makes some people want to "get back at them" through various means such as harassing or doxxing them.

What we need to understand is that in those cases, both the abuse and the harassment that followed are immoral and bad. It doesn't mean that the person who was targeted by the harassment is suddenly innocent of any wrongdoing. As Dragonmaw noted, Zoe has a really fucked up history. And I think that's really important to keep in mind, while we continue to condemn the harassment she receives.

I also think it's seriously dishonest to pretend this only happens within Gamergate and not any of the other movements aiming to effect social change. For example, feminism has a big problem with callout culture. When someone is declared "problematic" in some way, they get called out for it and then becomes the target of harassment. And some will make excuses for this or say that they deserved it because they were racist or sexist or whatever. This doesn't mean that the primary concerns of feminism are wrong (yes, gender inequality exists and yes we should do something about it), just that we need to be careful not to fall into the trap of becoming just as bad as the individuals we oppose.

[Faust06]

People may very well do things that increase the risk of continued harassment.

Of course, we do this when our goal/cause outweighs the risks. But these are out of our control for the most part; peripheral, like you said, the victim bears no responsibility. It already makes no sense to insinuate that she's undergoing harassment for fame in fortune, and it would make even less sense to say she's going out of her way to inflame harassment for that reason, as a way to attain it. Which is doable, but improbable.

I'm still baffled that GG exists.

[gimymblert]

I'm sure call out culture and the harassment we are talking about is on the same scale at all, not even close. I follow these thing closely, and nothing compare swatting, bomb threat, sending violent montage pictures with heavy racist imagery if you are a POC (generally WOC), getting people doing the same to your family member, etc ...

call out and harassment are two very different things, one bruise the ego, the other destroy lifes

The fact that Zoe is bouncing back instead of being destroyed like many other silenced victim is making these people MAD. I'm glad she is not silenced back, not all have this benefit, especially if you are a WOC.

And irony is that "call out cultue" originate from white social justice activist because they didn't like their POC counter part criticized them for profiting on their problem and making situation worse. Which they did by creating the narrative of call out culture that was then co opted by the opposition.

Call out is basically being accountable for the shit you do.

On the other side, actual victim of harassment are put down for overstepping the subaltern position they are pressured to hold.

THERE IS ZERO EQUIVALENCE

[SirNiko]

The ironic thing is the best way for her detractors to silence her would be to simply ignore her. Not urge others to boycott, not threaten her, not to refer to her with nicknames, but to simply not say anything to or about her ever again.

This book and movie are brilliant from the standpoint that they're going to get a huge amount of free advertising from people who hate them.

[s0]

I also think it's seriously dishonest to pretend this only happens within Gamergate and not any of the other movements aiming to effect social change. For example, feminism has a big problem with callout culture. When someone is declared "problematic" in some way, they get called out for it and then becomes the target of harassment. And some will make excuses for this or say that they deserved it because they were racist or sexist or whatever. This doesn't mean that the primary concerns of feminism are wrong (yes, gender inequality exists and yes we should do something about it), just that we need to be careful not to fall into the trap of becoming just as bad as the individuals we oppose.

i agree with that PARTIALLY. speaking for myself, i've definitely done questionable shit like shaming people for being "neckbeards" and etc in the name of "feminism". i have since changed my behavior bc i realized i was being dum and just looking to put other ppl down to feel good about myself. also definitely being a feminist doesn't mean you're some kind of holy saint, that goes without saying.

HOWEVER:

i don't think feminism vs gamergate is a very good comparison. feminism isn't one movement but a "position" that has been around since the 19th century (even earlier if you count proto-feminist thought) and has comprised  many diverse movements. gamergate is a fairly small movement that wants to change a particular thing (tho they can't seem to agree on what that thing actually is, but i digress).

in light of that, i think most people just see gamergate's positive goals as fairly irrelevant compared to the harm the movement has done. i mean, feminism has done a whole freaking lot for women's rights over multiple centuries in mostly peaceful ways. yes, there are currently feminists on the internet who harass, but a (in the grand scheme of things) handful of tumblr and twitter users don't negate these achievements. what has gamergate really achieved, other than making a bunch of people afraid for their lives, making women feel even more unwanted in "core" gaming, inviting redpill and MRA ideology into gamer culture and stunting discourse on videogames?

and let's not forget that gamergate started as a literal harassment campaign on 4chan called "burgers and fries". "ethics in game journalism" only came late. and tbh most critics of gamergate see this as an attempt to create a "respectable" excuse to diss feminists and "sjws", considering the nature of gamergate's targets.

i was gonna type more but you already know what my opinions are anyway and fallout 4 just unlocked on steam, so bye 

[Dragonmaw]

I also think it's seriously dishonest to pretend this only happens within Gamergate and not any of the other movements aiming to effect social change. For example, feminism has a big problem with callout culture. When someone is declared "problematic" in some way, they get called out for it and then becomes the target of harassment. And some will make excuses for this or say that they deserved it because they were racist or sexist or whatever. This doesn't mean that the primary concerns of feminism are wrong (yes, gender inequality exists and yes we should do something about it), just that we need to be careful not to fall into the trap of becoming just as bad as the individuals we oppose.

Nobody is pretending it only happens with GG. I got in some serious shit with some of social justice Twitter for daring to say that maybe we shouldn't excuse the srhbutts logs, and should instead focus on the comfort of survivors and point out that she's just some nobody whose hit piece on Breitbart was because she happened to be showcasing GG's awfulness. Some people tried to dig for skeletons in my closet, subtweeted me, all that shit.

I mean this doesn't really matter because you are essentially engaging in tu quoque bullshit. As Sinclair points out, feminism is a storied movement with many varied positions, a rare few of which happen to be toxic (see: Germaine Greer's transphobic comments). GG, as a whole, is advocating for nothing. It serves no purpose, and its stated goals and ideals are merely a cover for what its actual goals are: to drive away, often through excessive force, marginalized communities from gaming. Unless they assimilate, of course. Sounds a lot like white supremacy, if you ask me.

Here's another thing. Whatever Zoe did in the past, it is not even one tenth of an iota of what has been visited upon her since the Gjoni blog. We've all been shitty people, and from the verifiable (actually verifiable, not bullshit from GG or her ex) information I have, it was pretty standard "I'm too young to be in a relationship" nonsense. Whatever. People grow up.

You always bust out this false equivalency and it's getting kind of tiresome. You don't really seem at all interested in educating yourself not only on feminism, but on the lives of the people you are criticizing. The least you can do is be accurate and informed. I give everyone the same benefit of the doubt, the least you could do is extend that courtesy the other way.

[ProgramGamer]

Isn't her story about online harassment? How do you even translate that into a movie without showing a computer screen more than half the screentime?

[Dacke]

Every Frame a Painting: A Brief Look at Texting and the Internet in Film

[gimymblert]

Isn't her story about online harassment? How do you even translate that into a movie without showing a computer screen more than half the screentime?

all those hacker movie works, also it's about the real life effect and consequences not the screen

[ProgramGamer]

Every Frame a Painting: A Brief Look at Texting and the Internet in Film