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[GregWS]

fish is a hipster and Masna isn't?

[mirosurabu]

This kinda reminds me of the people who complain about those jerks who think they can play real guitar because they're good at Guitar Hero. I almost agree with them, but then I realize that I don't know anybody who does that. I think those are all great ways to get people interested in real game development, though it's not guaranteed that they will.

My feelings exactly. Not only with video games, but in general. Some people tend to hate "models" which do not really exist or are extremely rare.

[Smithy]

Why are we attacking Fish here about something as petty as this, anyway? There are plenty of other things to attack him for. His name, for example. Fucking Fish. What kind of name is Fish? Who does he think he is?

Snooty Fish thinks he's some sort of magnificent dolphinfish, I think.

Well I got news for him. He's nothing more than a stinking CARP. If you want my opinion.




*Yeah, I'm not taking any of this seriously. I'll stop pretending to contribute to this thread now.

[Zest]

@ Miroslav: Exactly! The same thing happened last year with the presidential election. I kept hearing people talk about how annoying it was that there were blacks who had voted for Obama because he was black- without ever citing a single actual person. On top of that, all of the people who said that were white. I suppose confirmation bias is to blame, at least partially; if they want to see it, then they'll only see that point of view.

[battlerager]

Goddamn do I love Smithy <3

[godsavant]

I hate how people think, just because you can use a bad platform, don't know any code, and don't have any experience in game design that they can produce full blown games.

This sounds like me.

[Gainsworthy]

I hate how people think, just because you can use a bad platform, don't know any code, and don't have any experience in game design that they can produce full blown games.

This sounds like me.

And me! You know, this exactly is what I love about indie games. Folks with no experience and no prior knowledge can start to design things of wonderful quality. Little guys can make an impact. Or even just make a fun game driven by ideas and grit alone. Without that, this place wouldn't exist. Nor would a significant component of my gaming time and thoughts.


Also, this place is getting goddamn savage. If we're starting to attack people with awesome ideas just because the thing's taking a while to create.... hmmph. Don't forget why you got into this scene, is all.


ALSO: Not a man alive who can stop The Smithy. 

[GregWS]

Man, this thread is such a downer.  Masna, you should be a gent and edit that first post a little bit, and then we should lock this thing down.  

And for the record, I do get what you're getting at Masna, and I know that in the Little Big Planet thread I said that I couldn't use the editor because I'd feel guilty for not working on a more original stand-alone game (in GM).

But yeah, let's keep TIGS the positive place we all enjoy it being.  

Also: Smithy for President! 





(hehe, we don't have a President in Canada, so that meant nothing!)

[Melly]

I'll give Masna some time to say something, if he wants to. In a few hours I'm locking the thread.

[Andy Wolff]

i don't have a problem with even the most stereotypical of people like that. it's just good they're being creative instead of wasting their time in less interesting or more harmful ways.

[PaleFox]

Shall I state my opinion? I also have not made a game, of course.

If someone makes a game, then that person has made a game. If they have written all their own code and their game is derivative pointless boring dreck, then how are they better than a person who has made a genuinely enjoyable, original... let's say Starcraft map. Tower Defense came out of Starcraft and such games, now we have fancy games like Immortal Defense on the front page, a game made in Game Maker. Spelunky, which seems to be the darling of many here right now, is also made in Game Maker. Are these people somehow worth less than, say, the man who made this?

You can say they can't PROGRAM, of course, if you like. Just don't pretend they can't be brilliant.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

Yeah, although I think he also invented the FPS genre? Or was that someone else?

Well I'm pretty sure that this invention was not of one particular person but rather a group effort.

What is for sure is that Carmack is an exceptional programmer and mind, though no game designer. He never had that role as far as I know.

id was pretty small back when it started, so I'm sure he at least did some weapon design or level design somewhere down the line. And a lot of genres were invented as a group effort, but usually there's at least one or a few people who were the main people who came up with the basic idea. For instance, the platformer genre can largely be credited to david crane and miyamoto; the tower defense genre to that one guy who made the first td game starcraft mod; the rts genre to whoever designed dune 2, and so on.

Come to think of it it's been quite a while since I've seen a new major genre invented, one that took off and became a new popular genre. The last was probably hidden object game. I don't know who did that one, probably some casual game design group. Another genre that I feel is in latency and may one day take off is the exploration game (seiklus, knytt, the path, yume nikki, etc.), but there aren't enough of them yet to say it's a solid genre.

[GregWS]

Another genre that I feel is in latency and may one day take off is the exploration game (seiklus, knytt, the path, yume nikki, etc.), but there aren't enough of them yet to say it's a solid genre.

Give it a couple years and this will definitely be a genre.  I guess in a way it is reminicent of the old PC adventure games, as some of them did have a pseudo-exploration aspect to them.

I actually think the original Metroid Prime is one of the best exploration games ever made, but the combat makes it an FPS, which I think is kind of a pity, because the exploration and archeological storytelling is phenomenal! 

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

Yeah, I think exploration games are similar to adventure games, without the obscure puzzles, all the text, and linearity. But there are elements of exploration games in other genres too (Out of This World, Silent Hill, Loom, Pikmin, Ico, etc.) -- a lot of games use atmospheric environments, but few games make the entire point of the game the atmospheric environments, and remove things that get in the way of exploration: the puzzles / bosses / obstacles / etc.

[ChevyRay]

Shadow of the Colossus is the closest commercial example of an exploration game I can think of. I agree that I'd really like to see this genre taken even further. I even have lots of ideas written down for purely exploration games, but they'll unfortunately stay as just ideas until I am able to make games out of anything other than pixellated graphics, because it's hard to achieve that vast sense of awe with such.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

I think the traveling between areas part in SoTC works, yes, and since the bosses can be approached in any order it's all open for exploration if you want to ignore the bosses entirely. but I still think the main point of SoTC was the boss battles, not the exploration, although its exploration part would definitely have worked alone as a full game if the bosses were taken out.

And I think exploration games can work with pixel art -- Saturated Dreamers is almost an exploration game, and uses primarily pixel art. But it's probably too early to say that the game works, since it isn't done yet.

[Hinchy]

My question is this: what is wrong with people who want to be game designers? There's nothing wrong with taking first steps into that universe with things like LBP, Roblox, etc etc. It's not really game programming per se, but it still brings people closer to actually making games.

[ChevyRay]

Yeah, it definitely wasn't aimed at being purely exploration, but it still is the closest commercial example I can think of.

Saturated Dreamers is almost an exploration game, and uses primarily pixel art. But it's probably too early to say that the game works, since it isn't done yet.

Yeah, but I'm a long ways from doing pixel art as nice as that. And an exploration game of the caliber I'd like to play would require more man hours of pixel art than I would ever undertake.

But I still think 3D can convey awe much better, especially when it comes to size. You can only fit so many pixels on a screen, but with 3D you can see something from afar, and it gets bigger and bigger as you get closer. Things like that.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

You can do that with pixel-art "paintings" or cutscenes. Phantasy Star 4 had some of these. Examples of how pixel art can be used for awe:

[ChevyRay]

What a great game that was. I still reminisce

I don't get that same sense of awe, though. A distant mountain in pixel art feels more like a scaled down mountain to me than a 3D one viewed from a distant. Because that 3D one isn't static: you can move closer to it, you could see birds flying over it, each and every one of those trees you see on it could be approached and inspected.

Achieving that in pixel art would be ridiculous. Though awesome.