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[Capntastic]

And on Twin Peaks, wasn't it a producer-scheduley deal that made the second season take some dumb turns? After the seductive redhead, I just sort of understood the way things were going and enjoyed the characters until some things exploded. But yeah, no one should call Deadly Premonition Twin Peaks, it's like an Snorg tshirt version of it, thinking it's so clever. Copy the technique, not the content guys.

Yeah there was a lot of producer bullshit with the show, though I can't blame them for everything because Lynch and Frost were basically making things up as they went along, really.

And Deadly Premonition is a love letter to Twin Peaks, by a dude who is super infatuated with the show (despite claiming he's never seen it, in one interview if I remember right).  Swery's previous game, Spy Fiction, was basically the same only with all of the convoluted spy movie plots instead of coffee and psychosexual terror.

[Dacke]

Escapism is a downright terrifying thing, just plain celebrating ignorance.

Hm? I mostly use culture (film/tv/books/games) as a form of escape from reality. Often I like to escape to a different dystopian place than the one I live in, but it's still escapism. In many ways, reading about science/math/history on Wikipedia is also a way for me to escape from reality (to another, simpler aspect of reality). The best way of escape for me is to go out for a long ride on my bicycle, but I have a hard time to actually get out the door when I'm feeling down.

I would be interested to hear if you think this is a problem or not? Because I can see both benefits and problems with all of the above (except maybe the cycling, which actually helps me improve my brain chemistry and cure my sadness)

[Capntastic]

Escapism is not mindful.

[DavidCaruso]

Facebook thread is cool. It always weirds me out when people equate mentioning or raising an issue to "addressing" (solving) it, like putting a bunch of people in front of a fictional movie or a painting or novel for a few hours is going to magically address any real problems. What it really does is serve to completely shatter any of the illusion your artwork might have had, which would be the point of making it fictional in the first place instead of, say, a documentary. (Preemptive: yeah, Uncle Tom's Cabin is an awful novel.)

[Dacke]

Escapism is not mindful.

Could you explain, please?

Do you mean that me reading 1984:
* isn't mindful?
* isn't escapism because it is mindful?

[unsilentwill]

Escapism is not mindful.

Exactly. Giving you self time for quiet reflection, study, being in nature, all fits into a greater goal of improving your life or the lives of those around you. If you're just killing time, or turning your brain off (woo kegger) or being blind to an issue because life is hard, I don't respect that, and think it's damaging to a functioning society.

Awareness of an issue is a step forward, not a solution, agreed. But apathy of an issue is a bigger problem. Though I love the idea of Papo and Yo to death, games/media like it are a bit heavy handed in saying exactly what you're supposed to think about, but that just narrows the audience. The point of fiction, as I understand it, is to tell stories that bring people together to think about life in a different way, connection to an issue otherwise ignored in nonfiction works, or understanding it personally to relate to a more universal concept.

[Capntastic]

Escapism is not mindful.

Could you explain, please?

Do you mean that me reading 1984:
* isn't mindful?
* isn't escapism because it is mindful?

If you're reading 1984 as escapism then something's amiss.  It's possible to enjoy fiction without it being escapism, provided you apply even the slightest veneer of critical thinking and awareness.  It's the difference between reading through some fantasy novel without any subtext or meaning-- or worse, ignoring that subtext or meaning-- compared to, say, giving Lord of the Rings a deep read or whatever.

[Dacke]

So it's not escapism just because you try to escape from reality? Only if you escape from reality and it's void of any deeper meaning?

So, like, me playing Nikujin/Sonic2 and feeling stimulated by the feeling/challenge, but not actually learning anything? Would that be escapism by your definition?

Also, I'm not sure why it would have to be a bad thing? I spend much of my time working (developing tools for science at my University), studying (learning CS and math), helping people around me, doing voluntary work for an animal rights organization and other stuff.

But I often feel depressed, sad and worked out. When I feel liked that, I want to escape from the world.. do you think it's wrong of me to escape to a pointless fantasy world when I feel like that? To me, I feel like it's a way to recharge my batteries, letting me do more good in the long run. But do you think it would better for me to never escape and just try to tackle my problems or something? Because I'm not sure I'd be able to do that..

[Capntastic]

I never said it's wrong, just that it isn't mindful.

[DavidCaruso]

Exactly. Giving you self time for quiet reflection, study, being in nature, all fits into a greater goal of improving your life or the lives of those around you. If you're just killing time, or turning your brain off (woo kegger) or being blind to an issue because life is hard, I don't respect that, and think it's damaging to a functioning society.

I'm definitely not turning off my brain when I play a good videogame, or watch a good movie, or read a good novel, etc.; these activities are far from being mindless. I also don't see how periods of relaxation ("killing time") are damaging to anyone rather than extremely helpful and even necessary to some degree.

I can't see the argument that escapism is bad working out, unless you're going to define escapism in the most narrow sense as "an artwork that is shallow and dumb" which would be untrue. Because to me 1984 seems like higher escapism than The Lord of the Rings, which is far higher escapism than Twilight, etc. (and of course movies and games lie even higher on the scale) Escapism doesn't necessarily mean something is always happy as long as it gives pleasure in some form (e.g. Schindler's List, despite being a depressing movie, is still high escapism.)

If you're reading 1984 as escapism then something's amiss.  It's possible to enjoy fiction without it being escapism, provided you apply even the slightest veneer of critical thinking and awareness.  It's the difference between reading through some fantasy novel without any subtext or meaning-- or worse, ignoring that subtext or meaning-- compared to, say, giving Lord of the Rings a deep read or whatever.

What is the "deep meaning" of Lord of the Rings, exactly? Please don't start going on about how the orcs are actually black people or something, I think I saw that somewhere before.

[Dacke]

@Capntastic
I do think unsilentwill was saying that it's "wrong" and I thought you were agreeing with him.

Note that I'm not trying to defend any specific behaviour, I'm just interested in better understanding your point of view.

[unsilentwill]

First of all, not all people are so disciplined, when they talk about escapism they mean like hours on end after their work, saying how much they deserve it, etc. If you're doing something purposefully for escape, to purposefully avoid something, then it's a bad thing.

Challenge/competetion have been pretty pointless to me, as they are usually time sinks or sources of frustration rather than fun, and knowing I could play/read/watch more thoughtful works makes me seek them out instead.

Things like cooking and eating food or going for a walk, making something creative can also be relaxation without being escapist, because you're still thinking and pondering. Also getting 8 hours of sleep isn't escapism, that's a bit more of a recharge like you're saying. Most people solve their problems when relaxed, you don't solve anything when you're hammered (unless you're a programmer) or playing a dumb game or touching yourself. These are just crutches that you don't need, and in general are better off without.

Edit: @Caruso I guess we have different definitions of "escapism" and probably "entertainment". I'm talking about escapism like the thread was, people who don't want to think when they watch shows. They're not treating it as artwork, they're treating it as a concussion or a drug. I watch TV, movies, play games, but I acknowledge that some of it is dumb and escapist and should probably avoided, but some of it (the "higher" things) have improved my life.

[Capntastic]

I just threw LoTR out there as an example of something that had a lot of work and effort put into creating a rich, textured creation.  I've never actually read it, though I've heard all sorts of discussions about possible subtext, especially in regards to the context of the era in which it was written.

Anyways, the core thrust of my point here is that there's a difference between shutting your brain off and watch, say, The Sandlot on DVD, and deciding to consciously relax and watch The Sandlot on DVD just staring at it passively, and remaining mentally engaged in whatever the film, the writers, the cinematography, etc, is all trying to convey.  Even if I were watching The Avengers or similar big-budget action movie, I'd be considering the interactions between the characters from different angles, analyzing what the different archetypes represent within the story, etc.  Even if I'm doing something that is almost totally intellectually void, that sort of stuff energizes me because I'm remaining fully mentally engaged.

I'm the sort of person that has a lot of mental inertia, and if I allow myself to fall out of mindful behavior, it's easy for me to waste a lot of time doing nothing.

[Dacke]

Yes, when I'm feeling depressed I can watch like a gazillion episodes of Star Trek while playing Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup or something. And yes, it is a purposeful way of escape and a crutch. And no, I am not very disciplined and I don't stay mindful most of the time and often do treat it like a drug. But it has gotten me through some tough patches, while I've waited for my life or mood to improve.

You say that I don't need them but I'm not so sure. When I feel like I just want do die, it can be quite helpful to escape until the feeling has passed.

[unsilentwill]

I think I've been there, and I sympathize. But I think we we can agree that there are other ways to deal with your life than avoiding it that can make you stronger, give you more control over your life, rather than tending to run from problems.

Anywho, we have plenty of non-mind-occupying/escapist games, I'm not sure how many more people need after Tetris. About time to see some more games that we can learn from.