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[unsilentwill]

I'm pretty sure he's thinking more of the Greek Odometer, as well as the aeolipile (closer to an engine than you give credit). People weren't scooting around in togas and carts, but the gear tech and propulsion is way older than we all assume. This is why we all geek out about the Antikythera mechanism, we like to think of complexity as recent when it's not.

As far as this weird discussion on creativity, the stealing and inspiration from an old current concept can vary wildly, from a complete (but still reliant) opposition and rejection to minor but substantial changes in function. I think the key is to fit the old idea to its new or desired purpose and context instead of assuming "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and just copy/pasting without considering the overall design. That process can lead to huge change, enough to appear original. Also I've found the biggest source of creativity is interdisciplinary, where something mundane in one field fits so well with the trends in another that no one sees it coming.

[seagaia]

im drinkin root beer

[Gimym TILBERT]

@nikki
We don't disagree about art, I'm saying that art and many notion that were later separate from art where NOT separate at the beginning, but slowly were as refinement happen. The notion of art for art's sake is certainly as old as art itself, the revolution brought by romanticism is just a shift of power, in culture were art and sacred is barely separated, the monk are effectively doing art for art's sake, and there is a lot of record of artist among all culture who wish they could do just that and not care about anything else. But remember art was not always the domain of the ego of the artist and his internal turmoils, it was the domain of gods and the artist merely just had inspiration by seeking transcendence, they were channel for the spirits.

On horseless carriage, i'm talking about the idea not the realization, the technology was there at that time but never gel (hence no creation).

[C.A. Sinner]

But remember art was not always the domain of the ego of the artist and his internal turmoils, it was the domain of gods and the artist merely just had inspiration by seeking transcendence, they were channel for the spirits.

i'd argue that those are essentially the same thing

[Gimym TILBERT]

In practice yes, in social dynamics and the relation we had with art, no.

The reason Modernism was such a huge shift is because before the traditional representation was tied to its spiritual origin. Basically GODS was the keeper of values and beauty, the artist then further interpret in its own style and sensibility but good artist was "gifted" by god, there was no responsibility for the art, at best the artist could be possessed.

This allowed a common framework to discuss the merit of such or such style, there were only one canon. Even invention like perspectives wasn't purely technical but assessed by their symbolic value (vanishing point as everything return to god's eye). The artist status went through many phases (here is a very loose recap for illustration):

- At first the artist and the sacred were the same, monk, priest etc... the sacred were the holder of social power.

- The king and similar title use art to glorified themselves as representation on earth of god, so the artist move to the service to power.

- When the merchant class gained power, they used the tropes of power to their own advantage, creating the "mecenat"  (not sure the english for).

- Ultimately artist start to turned their eyes to the mundane and the pious.

- Which evolve in the glorification of everydays until the artist proclaim his own eyes as sacred with romanticism and separate itself from effective social power.

- But such a tradition was turn toward the external world as a manifestation of god and then a conception beauty as a substitute of god but still holding the same value. As technical understanding allowed deconstruction of reality and render old tradition and the status of artist as obsolete. It allowed deep aspect of art, such as composition to be free from tradition and be explored as itself, which ultimately turn art into design, which is the ultimate mastery of the "craft" by manipulating his atomic component to achieve ANY kind of expression. Beauty has became a personal conception, difficult to share without "gods" as a common reference, artist was "god"

- Postmodern bring the DIY philosophy which furthered the disempowering of artist as a social class, despite the remain of a decrepit high art as a culture, opening the art to many parallel cultures (which robs high art is special place, being just one circle among too many) and bringing access to the mass to the skills and knowledge, placing the viewer above the artist. Art was never as personal and free as today. There is no more gods. But remains of the tradition is still there, we still consider art as a sacred elements that date backs to its origin even if art has tremendously change and our relation to it too.

That's what I called the Promethean history of art, fire was stolen from gods to bring light to humanity.

[C.A. Sinner]

what you're saying is basically true but i'd say the role of art changed b/c society changed and the role of "the artist" relative to society didn't, or at least not as much. the way i see it, the "autonomy" rhetoric of modernism is just divine inspiration/artistic genius adapted to the ideology of materialism and leftwing politics that was popular at the time.

also im kinda surprised by your positive(?) assessment of postmodernism because i always thought that u advocated modernist formalism.

[Gimym TILBERT]

Well I don't fall into a camp, I recognize the merit of all. Modernist give the strong formalism which allow for analysis and composition, traditionalist give a strong reference to define identity (even if you go against it) and post modernism give you the freedom and humility.
I'm naturally a formalist, it's baked in my brain, but I do the difference between my tendency, my taste and my view on art.

[C.A. Sinner]

ah that's interesting. your posts in the various "art game" threads make a lot more sense to me now lol. sometimes it's hard to argue with you because its hard to tell where youre coming from.

btw: im coming at this from the music angle moreso than the visual art angle b/c thats what i studied and am most familiar with. im mostly a performer and not a composer so i tend to value content over form. im sympathetic to postmodernism but im against the commodification that often comes with it and i also think it probably worked better for music than it did for visual art.

[Gimym TILBERT]

lol great

On sexism, here is the comment of a female artist in the comic industry

http://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/134f6k/i_am_kelly_sue_deconnick_writer_of_ghost_captain/c7184q1

Fun fact: manga had no distribution system, yet they start to sold million (traditional comics only sell in the 100k) for a higher price and a lower quality (paper, color) and with a non intuitive reading direction with story taking place in a totally different culture ... to girl you weren't traditional comic reader!

THAT'S A HELL LOT OF BARRIER!

Now look at video games ...

note: manga also showed that men can like cute, cuddly things too

[Mono]

I want to be a wizard too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU1xS07N-FA

edit: also dat LCD Soundsystem rip-off.

[seagaia]

I want to be a wizard too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU1xS07N-FA

edit: also dat LCD Soundsystem rip-off.

HAHAHA wizards. Looks like a nice thing, to promote programming literacy.

[seagaia]

the comments...hahah

"Wow, i feel so far above other people when watching this. I know it sounds egocentric, but I'm 17, I know how to code C, C++, Java, Java-Script, HTML (Hyper Text Markup Language), and what i believe use to be called NBasic. I'm also about 3 months away from being certified in COMPTIA Network+. And seeing all of this, and all the awesome people (Gabe, you especially... but where dafuq is HL3) makes me feel a part of them. Oh, and I can't wait to be a wizzard!"

[Gimym TILBERT]

http://teamcoco.com/video/clueless-gamer-conan-obrien-reviews-tomb-raider
Priceless reaction starting at 6:00

[zalzane]

I know it sounds egocentric, but I'm 17, I know how to code C, C++, Java, Java-Script, HTML (Hyper Text Markup Language)

this guy is in for one hell of a reality check when he gets offered a 40k starting job codemonkeying in some basement

[seagaia]

I know it sounds egocentric, but I'm 17, I know how to code C, C++, Java, Java-Script, HTML (Hyper Text Markup Language)

this guy is in for one hell of a reality check when he gets offered a 40k starting job codemonkeying in some basement

i can't believe someone can say that seriously...please for the love of god is that a troll..