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[Paul Eres]

there were also cases where they arrested girls who took cell phone pictures of themselves (and were under 18) for charges of child pornography

also i agree that the idea of 'potential criminal' is pretty orwellian -- besides which, would not people who enjoy killing in GTA and other games be just as much potential criminals as people who enjoy rape games? just because someone enjoys something as a fantasy doesn't mean they'd enjoy it in reality (as so many people pointed out in the 'gamers are scary' thread)

[Lurk]

I know people who wouldn't raise kids around an atheist or a racist.  That doesn't make being an atheist or a racist illegal.

JoeHonkie: I know, but I don't make the laws, I just know of them and try to respect them. Some of them are very old, and bleed into social ethics- a sexual relationship between an adult and a child is one of these. If there is popular support for bills of law, they become law, whether they last or not depends on how society develops. I think it's important to protect children from adults though. As you grow older, you grow clever, and you can easily manipulate the innocence of a child, and one of the first thing you teach a child is to respect authority figures (adults)- that's what's wrong. I don't want to go into a debate about what defines porn, most of people who have watched porn have a pretty clear idea of what they are looking for.

Paul: I used "potential criminal" in describing someone looking at child pornography. Maybe my term was wrong, I should've said "potential child rapist".

[JoeHonkie]

there were also cases where they arrested girls who took cell phone pictures of themselves (and were under 18) for charges of child pornography

There's repeated cases of shit like this.  Or 17/19 relationships where one family just wants to fuck someone's life up because they assumed their kid was perfect and oh god now they had sex we must have revenge, etc.

Beyond that, there's some question as to whether a dude who slept with a 17 or 16 year old girl should honestly be lumped into the same category as someone who molested an actual prepubescent infant.  It's like comparing a mugging to a murder.  The former is real shitty, but the latter is an altogether more dangerous thing.

JoeHonkie: I know, but I don't make the laws, I just know of them and try to respect them. Some of them are very old, and bleed into social ethics- a sexual relationship between an adult and a child is one of these. If there is popular support for bills of law, they become law, whether they last or not depends on how society develops. I think it's important to protect children from adults though. As you grow older, you grow clever, and you can easily manipulate the innocence of a child, and one of the first thing you teach a child is to respect authority figures (adults)- that's what's wrong.

None of this means anything as far as thought crimes.  There's no such thing as a thought crime.  You can't lock people up for thinking about doing something but not doing it.

Nobody's saying to break the law, just that in this case the law is stupid.  Also plenty of taboo activities are perfectly ok to think about or fictionalize.  There's no disconnect between me A) Thinking dudes who bang children should be locked up, B) being creeped out by dudes who fantasize about banging children, and C) still thinking the latter isn't a crime.

I don't want to go into a debate about what defines porn, most of people who have watched porn have a pretty clear idea of what they are looking for.

And plenty of other people have a shitty idea of what porn is.  I see that every day.  Some of these people will be on juries or be practicing law, and that's why we should never accept laws that are a "judgement call."

[Lurk]

JoeHonkie:

There's no disconnect between me A) Thinking dudes who bang children should be locked up, B) being creeped out by dudes who fantasize about banging children, and C) still thinking the latter isn't a crime.

Sure, but then you live in a society with other people, who might have different opinions. They assemble in groups to enforce their version of what they think is better for everyone. That's democracy. Again, I personaly think that A) dudes who bang children should be locked up, B) am being creeped out by dudes who fantasize about banging children, and C) still think the latter isn't a crime. But, I live in a country where possesion of the material which would help B)'s imagination is illegal. And I have no problem living without it. I am pissed at not being able to grow or buy a plant that provides me some relaxation, but my group is pretty active in trying to change that, and is gaining in popularity. If people want pictures or drawings depicting sexual acts between children and adults, they need to make an appeal to the general populace, to make it legal again. Then there is enforcement. No cops are going to bust through your door if you have a few loli-mangas on your pc- they might if you're pretty deep in pedophilia related circles, mailing lists and websites.

[Super Joe]

*ultimate warrior theme plays, paedophile runs down ramp enraged towards your preteen child*

[JoeHonkie]

JoeHonkie:

There's no disconnect between me A) Thinking dudes who bang children should be locked up, B) being creeped out by dudes who fantasize about banging children, and C) still thinking the latter isn't a crime.

Sure, but then you live in a society with other people, who might have different opinions. They assemble in groups to enforce their version of what they think is better for everyone. That's democracy. Again, I personaly think that A) dudes who bang children should be locked up, B) am being creeped out by dudes who fantasize about banging children, and C) still think the latter isn't a crime. But, I live in a country where possesion of the material which would help B)'s imagination is illegal. And I have no problem living without it. I am pissed at not being able to grow or buy a plant that provides me some relaxation, but my group is pretty active in trying to change that, and is gaining in popularity. If people want pictures or drawings depicting sexual acts between children and adults, they need to make an appeal to the general populace, to make it legal again. Then there is enforcement. No cops are going to bust through your door if you have a few loli-mangas on your pc- they might if you're pretty deep in pedophilia related circles, mailing lists and websites.

Democracy is NOT supposed to be a tyranny of the majority.  So don't say "Just because most people want something, it becomes ok."  That's the worst argument ever.  You can't legislate morality.  There's a reason, for example, you can't just vote to bring slavery back.  Or teach creationism in a public school.  I could totally get banning of the public sale of "lascivious materials," even if I didn't agree with it, but I can't accept the punishment of people just found to have them.

Also, I'm not sure I was ever arguing the fact of the legal situation.  I was stating my opinion.  I'm not sure how the masses of idiots should make me change that.

And yeah, I'm not pretending people are getting busted for having tentacle rape comix, but people ARE getting busted for having sex with someone 1 year their junior, or even trading pictures with people their own age.  Also, their lives are getting ruined.  Using laws that are supposed to protect THEM from outside exploitation.  It's not a "slippery slope" argument.  We're already over the bad part of the slope in some areas.

[Shade Jackrabbit]

None of this means anything as far as thought crimes.  There's no such thing as a thought crime.  You can't lock people up for thinking about doing something but not doing it.

Drive-by-reference: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Random_Thoughts_(episode) - Star Trek is always valid. I think this pertains to the topic of thought crimes.

[JoeHonkie]

Drive-by-reference: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Random_Thoughts_(episode) - Star Trek is always valid. I think this pertains to the topic of thought crimes.

I do not recognize any Star Trek beyond the original series.  I'm not sure what you posted but unless it has bad jujistu and sexy green chicks I don't want to know.

[Shade Jackrabbit]

Drive-by-reference: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Random_Thoughts_(episode) - Star Trek is always valid. I think this pertains to the topic of thought crimes.

I do not recognize any Star Trek beyond the original series.  I'm not sure what you posted but unless it has bad jujistu and sexy green chicks I don't want to know.

I'm sorry but Deep Space 9 is far superior to The Original Series, though what I posted was from Voyager. But this is a debate for another day.

[Lurk]

JoeHonkie:

people ARE getting busted for having sex with someone 1 year their junior, or even trading pictures with people their own age.  Also, their lives are getting ruined.

I would'nt know, I don't live in the US. Here in Quebec, it's not the same, you can have sex at 15, with a 13 year old, and it's not a big deal(most young girls have older boyfriends). I was 1 year younger than my girlfriend when we first did it(15-16), nobody went to jail.
Sorry I was'nt too clear about the democracy thing:if you want something, you assemble, present your cause to the public, which in turn puts pressure on the politicians to bring it up to the courts, which will statute on the validity of the argument you present. That's how it usually works here anyways. 
Here's what I found

A youth of twelve or thirteen can consent to sexual activity with an individual no more than two years older than them. A fourteen- or fifteen-year-old can consent to sexual activity with a partner who is no more than five years older than them

[JoeHonkie]

JoeHonkie:

people ARE getting busted for having sex with someone 1 year their junior, or even trading pictures with people their own age.  Also, their lives are getting ruined.

I would'nt know, I don't live in the US. Here in Quebec, it's not the same, you can have sex at 15, with a 13 year old, and it's not a big deal(most young girls have older boyfriends). I was 1 year younger than my girlfriend when we first did it(15-16), nobody went to jail.
Sorry I was'nt too clear about the democracy thing:if you want something, you assemble, present your cause to the public, which in turn puts pressure on the politicians to bring it up to the courts, which will statute on the validity of the argument you present. That's how it usually works here anyways. 
Here's what I found

A youth of twelve or thirteen can consent to sexual activity with an individual no more than two years older than them. A fourteen- or fifteen-year-old can consent to sexual activity with a partner who is no more than five years older than them

Not quite the 1/2+7 rule, but I like that a lot better than what we do here.

And yeah, petitioning and stuff is what you are supposed to do, but right now we have a strong "family values" thing going in the US, where "family values" treats everyone as a potential threat the way "homeland security" treats every brown person as a bomb-toting terrorist.  Welcome to the culture of fear!

EDIT: Also, never bring up Star Trek when talking about pedophilia.

On one wall is a "Star Trek" poster with investigators' faces substituted for the Starship Enterprise crew. But even that alludes to a dark fact of their work: All but one of the offenders they have arrested in the last four years was a hard-core Trekkie.

[Corpus]

This thread actually made me cry. I'm not crying over the game or anything, just because most of you are being such dicks to Sigvatr and then to Paul for not condemning him.

I've been mostly away for a good few weeks due to exams and the revision leading up to them, but I've seen people saying things like this a few times already, particularly on the IRC (well, not crying - that seems pretty, uh, extreme - but the stuff about it getting dickish and unpleasant). I missed all of the reportedly intense nastiness in this thread. Can anyone give me some examples of it, or will I have to trawl through its whole (apparently awful) extent?

[Lurk]

JoeHonkie:

And yeah, petitioning and stuff is what you are supposed to do, but right now we have a strong "family values" thing going in the US, where "family values" treats everyone as a potential threat the way "homeland security" treats every brown person as a bomb-toting terrorist.  Welcome to the culture of fear!

We read about it, but can never be sure it's not just a localized thing in a crazy small town.  I'm pretty sure if straight thinking people could leave their differences aside, they would form a much more powerful voting bloc than the crazies. But since they divide between the Republican brand and Democratic brand, winners are always fringe lobby groups who hold the balance of power.

[Paul Eres]

@corpus, here's one:

Oh come the fuck ON Paul. He's not deep. He put that there not caring that it stood out like a sore fucking thumb, just so he could say OH BOY I'M SO MUCH MORE INTELLIGENT THAN YOU ALL WATCH ME WAVE MY INTERNET DICK IN THE AIR and not look like he was pulling things out of his ass on the fly.

He's a stupid kid who pulled a dick move so he could show off how edgy and hip he is. That's all he is. Stop giving him so much fucking credit. He doesn't even deserve the 16 pages of discussion he's got. He deserves a smack in the face and a stern talking to from the sort of person who scares Rottweilers into playing dead by their mere presence.

[JoeHonkie]

We read about it, but can never be sure it's not just a localized thing in a crazy small town.  I'm pretty sure if straight thinking people could leave their differences aside, they would form a much more powerful voting bloc than the crazies. But since they divide between the Republican brand and Democratic brand, winners are always fringe lobby groups who hold the balance of power.

The two-party system is doom for us all.  But anything else requires thinking for yourself.