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[Alec]

To be fair (i.e. to me) what we are actually discussing is this question: Are the people who are angry about this announcement simply idiots, or is there is a more charitable way to understand their feelings? I think that discussion belongs here, since this is where the announcement is at.

I don't think anyone called anyone idiots? (at least, I wasn't trying to)

If its true that what's really going on is disappointment, folks could just express that without making accusations. Simple 'nuff.

[Bennett]

If its true that what's really going on is disappointment, folks could just express that without making accusations. Simple 'nuff.

I don't really think it's disappointment either. If it was, people would be more like and less like 

And I disagree with Corpus, this isn't the same issue again and again. If it's been resolved, then I suppose you can answer this: suppose your game gets a lot of press when you're first developing it, and you develop a big fanbase. Later, you get into contract negotiations which force you to be totally mysterious about whether or not any given fan can in fact ever have the game. When you're a fan of a game, when you're following a game, you invest time and emotion in it. If you tell people that they should just be happy being in the dark about whether or not they will be able to play your game, you're really telling them not to be fans of your game. This all works x20 in a community-driven industry. So how do you resolve this without pissing people off? It's not a basic question.

(Also for the straw-man-lovers in the crowd, I'm not saying the resolution is to avoid big publishers. I want each and every one of you to make the most lucrative deals possible so that there are more published indie games. But that really is something that has already been discussed forever)

[Alec]

I guess I don't really see what the huge issue is. Its like... I probably have to wait a bit longer to play it on my PC. Oh noes?

I can't really see Polytron not releasing it for PC ever. Its silly to assume that because they haven't explicitly stated it that they won't.

[Alec]

If you tell people that they should just be happy being in the dark about whether or not they will be able to play your game, you're really telling them not to be fans of your game.

Uh, why can't people be expected to have some degree of patience?

We're not going to get to know everything about the development of this game, no team works that way.

Personally, I'm a fan of it because it looks awesome. When it comes out for a platform I have, I'll buy it and play it. I have faith that the developers will release it for a platform that I own eventually. (I don't have a 360 either)

[Bennett]

I can't really see Polytron not releasing it for PC ever. Its silly to assume that because they haven't explicitly stated it that they won't.

It's also silly to assume they will because they haven't explicitly stated that, either. Maybe Microsoft wants it for a XBLA exclusive, and gave them a zillion dollars (I hope so!). They also shiftily avoid any questions about it rather than saying 'can't say at this time', which makes it seem like we should expect 'bad' news.

But my point is, if you're following it as a fan/supporter/whatever you probably need to know. If you're not invested in it, you're probably finding this emotion hard to understand, but put yourself in the shoes of a fan.

Uh, why can't people be expected to have some degree of patience?

If you're patient for something that might never happen, I don't think that's patience... that's... something else.

[fish]

we're not idiots, people.

[Alec]

It's also silly to assume they will because they haven't explicitly stated that, either. Maybe Microsoft wants it for a XBLA exclusive, and gave them a zillion dollars (I hope so!). They also shiftily avoid any questions about it rather than saying 'can't say at this time', which makes it seem like we should expect 'bad' news.

You're choosing to be cynical about it. That's your choice. I don't think they would be mysterious about it just to fuck with people. My guess is it'll be exclusive to XBox for a while, then it will hit other platforms. Why would Microsoft care about exclusivity of an indie game for ALL TIME? Why would Polytron want that? That's silly. Developers want to get their games on as many platforms as they can. Microsoft doesn't hand out big-ass checks just to prevent developers from making some piddly extra bits of money on the PC and Mac.

AFAIK, its also not like a thatgamecompany arrangement where Microsoft owns the rights to the game.

My point is, if people calm down and think for a bit, they'll realize its not a big deal.

But then again all the paranoid accusations and speculation is good for buzz, so its not like its a bad thing. I just felt like I could help explain the other side of it.

But my point is, if you're following it as a fan/supporter/whatever you probably need to know. If you're not invested in it, you're probably finding this emotion hard to understand, but put yourself in the shoes of a fan.

I am a fan of a lot of things, this included. I don't hold it against the creators personally that they make certain decisions to stay in business longer. (unless its something that adversely affects the work)

The next Miyazaki movie will probably come out in Japan before North America! HOW DARE HE.

I mean, I have friends who have 360s, so even if the game NEVER comes out for the PC (which I'm 99.999999% sure is extremely unlikely) I can play it at my friend's house. I can still be a fan of the game, regardless.

I'm a fan of a lot of things I may never get to experience first hand as well. I don't feel like the creators are saying I can't be a fan.

[Bennett]

I'm a fan of this game too, but I'm not A Fan, in the sense that the DNF forum people were Fans of Duke Nukem. I don't really identify with people who are Proper Fans, they seem crazy to me, and I don't know why people get so emotionally invested in a game. But I think these types of people are pretty valuable to have on board. Fez certainly has these guys - they're buying t-shirts of an unreleased game, FFS.

And I don't think I'm being cynical, I'm just saying there's not a lot of information to go on, from a Real Fan's point of view.

we're not idiots, people.

Maybe you all think I'm being ridiculous, but I think saying something straight like this probably helps a lot.

[Alec]

I feel like there's a lot more than a lot of games offer up, actually. Especially for a really focused indie game of this nature. You can only reveal so much of the game before it comes out.

I bought a tshirt - and I bought it because I love the design. I imagine the reason the tshirts sell well is mainly because they look good. I'm sure a lot of people buy it to support the developers too, but it would be significantly less if they were ugly shirts.

[Corpus]

I actually kinda suspect that most of the people having hissy fits about this announcement won't have bought T-shirts, but I may be completely wrong. I bought one of the Fez shirts, but because I liked the design and wanted to offer some help to the general cause of (relatively) large-scale independent development, not because of some sort of crazy fandom. I guess it also helps that Fez looks pretty cool and it'd be nice if it came out. I suspect that most people are the same (again, could be totally wrong).

I also think that most of the whining here has nothing to do with crazy fandom. It's just people being disappointing on the internet.

EDIT: Oh, Alec posted. Kinda what he said, then.

[Super Joe]

hey phi,l. whats up.

[fish]

taking it easy today.
its friday.

[Super Joe]

thats no excuse. every day is a hard work day. somebody with cancer needs my legs to move for money.

[unsilentwill]

I am excited.

A puzzle game is coming with hopefully fascinating storytelling ideas.

Now this year will be lacking.

[Bezzy]

I find that cool people are platform agnostic. They go where the games are, and if they simply can't afford to, they don't complain.

[GregWS]

we're not idiots, people.

Right, I'll take that as an admission of an eventual PC release.

Honestly, I have 0 issues with waiting significantly longer for one (heck, even a year later is fine by me), I just don't like the idea of not getting to play it.

[Cheater‽]

More like FEZBOX 360.

[Jason Rohrer]

Strange that more people didn't see this coming.  I mean, where else is an XNA game headed?  At least we can be certain of one thing:  there will never be a MAC release! 

Which brings me to another point:  by focusing on a single, standardized platform, a dev can have full control of the play experience, down to the frame and pixel and millisecond of responsiveness.  Braid on XBLA really shined.  I mean, I wouldn't want folks to play any other version, in an ideal world.  I don't have an XB360 (borrowed a friend's when Braid came out), but so what?  There's something more important here, and that's the existence of a perfected game.

I recently DLed the Braid demo for my Mac mini (1.5 GHz, bought used for iPhone dev).  It's PLAYABLE, but that doesn't mean it is ideal.  The music skips sometimes, and there are other performance glitches.  No longer a perfect game. 

And both Fez and Braid, from my understanding of it, were INDIE games.  Not because they did or did not come out on the PC first, but because of how they were funded.  Jon spent his own savings and loans from friends to make Braid.  He got nothing from M$ until after the sales started to roll in.  Same is true for Fez.  My understanding is that it's just how XBLA dev works.  You gotta buy the dev kit yourself and everything.

Let's not roll our own definition of indie.  Let's look at movies.  We've all seen so-called indie films, but most of those got shown in theaters at some point.  How?  Publishers picked them up AFTER they were made, probably after a good showing at a festival.

How is that different than what happened to Fez?

Non-indie films have publishers on board, and publishe money, from the start.  That's not what's happening here at all.

And lucky Jon is now a (multi?) millionaire who can work on whatever the fuck he wants for his next game.  XBLA is a goldmine if you hit it right.  I think that Fez is going to hit it right.  So good for Phil---he'll buy himself a lifetime of finacial freedom from his gem of a game, by exposing it to a huge, hungry audience.  I mean, there are only 5000 members total on this forum.  How many copies could he possibly sell if he stuck with selling PC copies to "the scene"?  Perhaps Alec can answer that for us.

Anyway, I also wanted to say that I did play the IGF build way back when, and videos do not do it justice.  It is a mind-expanding experience.

[KennEH!]

Sweet 2010 can't wait.

[fish]

thank you jason.