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1059473 Posts in 43082 Topics- by 35039 Members - Latest Member: haddenadam

October 31, 2014, 11:34:16 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesBREAKING NEWS! Turning this into something productive/positive
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Author Topic: BREAKING NEWS! Turning this into something productive/positive  (Read 11048 times)
AdamAtomic
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« on: July 22, 2009, 08:36:31 PM »

http://www.significant-bits.com/how-i-got-art-for-my-game-part-2

You heard it hear first, folks.  Breaking news: despite my widespread, covert conspiracy to fool the indie games community into thinking that I'm nice, Incubator Games has discovered that I'm actually a racist.

(note that it's an anonymous blog that calls me out by name)



UPDATE: In an effort to address some of the core misunderstandings that lead to me jeering at various posters on the Pixelation job posting boards on a weekly basis, I've written this:

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/AdamSaltsman/20090724/2571/Pixel_Art_Freelance_Best_Practices__Guidelines.php

1 - From beginners (at either freelancing or hiring): was anything confusing or unclear?  Anything you would like to know more about?

2 - From veterans (at either freelancing or hiring): did I get anything just plain wrong?  Any subjects I missed that are particularly important?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 04:05:38 AM by AdamAtomic » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2009, 08:40:35 PM »

This news is hardly breaking for those of who know you.

Asshole.

Holy shit you're also a racist, according to this blog.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 08:44:51 PM by xerus » Logged

The-Imp
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2009, 08:43:23 PM »

Quote
I could smell your cheap, exploitative rates from a mile away
RULING WITH AN IRON FIST YEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
YOU FILTHY RACIST YOU

But yeah, when it was initally posted on Pixelation, I just read your conversation... I see you made a post today...
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 08:51:13 PM »

i think he has a point in that if people are willing to pay less, and people willing to work for less, let them go at it. not everyone lives in the developed world. $800 for a game's art may seem exploitive to you, but for someone living in, say, indonesia, that's more than they can make in a year any other way, and they'd be happy to work for that. and if someone can only afford to pay $800 for pixel art, i don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to ask if anyone is willing to make the art for their game for $800

that said, singling you out and making a post about you in particular while remaining anonymous himself is pretty immature, yes
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2009, 08:56:32 PM »

Yea, I hope I made it clear in my comments that I have no problem with people not getting paid professional rates all the time for every job!  Shit I did Cave Story Wii for like $5/hour.  HOWEVER, I do have a problem with endorsing those sorts of rates on a very well-trafficked forum that caters to serious artists and serious employers.

Also I think I know who Incubator Games is, but I'm gonna need a little while to confer!
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 08:58:10 PM »

I hope it's not your old nemesis, Nick Nuclear.
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 08:59:38 PM »

Also I think I know who Incubator Games is, but I'm gonna need a little while to confer!
LANGDELL!!!!!

No? It was worth a guess.
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 09:00:15 PM »

Yea, I hope I made it clear in my comments that I have no problem with people not getting paid professional rates all the time for every job!  Shit I did Cave Story Wii for like $5/hour.  HOWEVER, I do have a problem with endorsing those sorts of rates on a very well-trafficked forum that caters to serious artists and serious employers.

Also I think I know who Incubator Games is, but I'm gonna need a little while to confer!

ah, understandable. i didn't read all the comments there, just his original post. i agree that he shouldn't be saying 'this is how much pixel art is worth', if that's what he was doing
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 09:03:45 PM »

lol, no not edgy tim...I've sent off a couple emails, we'll see if we found Incubator or not Smiley

EDIT - I realize this is kinda vain posting this thread, but this is the first time I got called out by some internet nobody, sort of a internet trash talk virgin I guess Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 09:12:26 PM »

You've already banned the guy from one of the sites he was advertising on, yes? Why not let it go? It seems like a good faith disagreement about what sort of prices he ought to be paying for artwork. (Though it was a little douche-y to call you out by name.)
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 09:16:04 PM »

EDIT - I realize this is kinda vain posting this thread, but this is the first time I got called out by some internet nobody, sort of a internet trash talk virgin I guess Smiley

what, you don't seem to remember the frontpage comments about fathom Smiley
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 09:21:35 PM »

what, you don't seem to remember the frontpage comments about fathom Smiley

Touch, sir. Though in my mind those comments were entirely legitimate (Fathom has major flaws) and also not personal attacks!
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 09:23:01 PM »

You've already banned the guy from one of the sites he was advertising on, yes? Why not let it go? It seems like a good faith disagreement about what sort of prices he ought to be paying for artwork. (Though it was a little douche-y to call you out by name.)

Ummm talking it over with the other moderators at least.  I'm not on a campaign or anything here, I just had a need to discuss it I guess?  Not sure...I was hoping also that someone would have a clue who that guy is, but now that I think I know the thread is perhaps not so useful Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 09:25:25 PM »

I'll say this as a good friend.

I think you were being kind of a dick.

Not because you were reprimanding him for wanting to pay a cheap rate, but because you didn't explain yourself enough while doing it.

(I love you.)
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 09:29:02 PM »

i think that kind of comes as part of being a moderator on a forum -- overly nice people make bad moderators. and simply having power may make what you do seem harsher to those without that power.

that said, if i were in that position i wouldn't have moved the thread to the unpaid forum, since that could be seen as insulting, but perhaps set up another forum for 'low pay' jobs as opposed to 'professional pay' jobs?
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 09:32:39 PM »

haha!  nah it's true, I just get tired of doing the full explanation on there all the time.  I've gotten better at it lately:

http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=8662.msg96954#msg96954

See sometimes I am polite!  But my suspicions of the crap job posts we get were actually validated a couple days ago:

http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=8223.0

Got emailed out of the blue that these guys have run some nice unpaid jobs in the past!

So yea, I am a dick to some of these guys, but they DO usually deserve it.  After reading that blog and talking to them in the comments (without being a dick!!) it became clear that no one at Incubator has ever hired anyone or worked freelance ever before, and that I was wasting my time.

With Incubator specifically, their initial post did not have ANY research or pay attention to the forum rules at all...they later amended it with the tiny budget I expected them to post, at which point I did not see the merit in maintaining a professional discourse with them, as I'd gone through the same process with two other posters that week (uh oh I am a racist!!)  This was a mistake, but one I don't feel too bad about.


Paul - I actually discussed that exact option with the other moderators but we still haven't made a decision about whether or not that's a forum we want to offer or not, or if it would even address the problem (cheap employers still wanting their gigs in the "good jobs" forum)...
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2009, 04:42:24 AM »

Ahaha, the whole "we disagree = you are a racist" is basically why things like "Godwin's Law" exist.  If you can't make a reasonable argument without resorting to insane hyperbole, give up.
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2009, 06:41:17 AM »

edit: doh! I don't usually read beyond the first comment or two.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 05:47:40 PM by nihilocrat » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2009, 06:45:43 AM »

Don't get me wrong. I think what you're doing is very important: you're trying to keep low-ball offers from depressing wages for pixel artists on the board. That's really cool, and I salute you for doing it. (We could use that kind of vigilance in many other areas of the economy, in fact.) Gentleman

I guess my main concern is, I can kind of identify with Incubator-guy's position as a newbie to hiring artists. Personally, while I've worked with volunteer artists in the past, I haven't had occasion to hire one (not yet, anyway). If I did, I wouldn't have the first clue how long a given project could reasonably be expected to take. So if I solicited bids for a sum in the $15-50/hr range and got responses from artists on the board, I would have probably relied on those bids, assuming that they came from people who knew more about how long the project would last than I would. I wouldn't be trying to pay a shitty wage.

On the other hand, it looks like you told him up-front how much would be a fair, professional wage for the work. So it's not like he had no notice and was going solely based on bids. In that situation, other than adhering to the obvious rule of Don't Piss Off The Moderator, what kind of additional research could one do to ensure that the correct wage is the one the moderator quoted and not the one the artists quoted?
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2009, 06:52:48 AM »

It seems there's no longer anything remotely referring to racism on the blog post you link.

I just checked and it seems to still be there:
Quote
  #14 by The Management at July 22nd, 2009

Well, Ive already outlined how I reached my offer and why I think its fair anything else beyond this point will just lead to circular discussions, which Id rather avoid.

However, I will say that I was rather surprised by your statement on judging people, Adam. Such an approach is at the core of virtually all prejudices racism, sexism, etc. so I dont see how it could ever be considered fair.
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