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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesBREAKING NEWS! Turning this into something productive/positive
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Author Topic: BREAKING NEWS! Turning this into something productive/positive  (Read 14459 times)
Derek
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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2009, 02:36:08 PM »

Adam, if you had time, maybe you could write a tutorial that's geared both toward people who make games who are looking for pixel artists and artists who are interested in doing paid pixel work?  And then cross-post it on Pixelation and TIGForums?

Sounds like it could be really helpful!
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2009, 03:34:31 PM »

Yea I am still not super confident that a "not real jobs" jobs forum would actually solve the problem though, which is that people who can't pay enough want access to the same community as people that DO pay enough, and the same prevalance or priority in the postings, which I don't think we can do?  I'm not sure, I'm definitely going to keep considering options though, if only to save ME my weekly strife with dudes flippin out, etc.

Derek - I've written about basic freelancing practice before, but I haven't done anything about pixel art specifically, that could be really good.  I will add it to my list of Things That Need Writin!
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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2009, 05:06:36 PM »

Well the ordinary board is the one that gets on the front page, right? (Or am I thinking of a different site?) If you create a nested child board, it wouldn't have the same prevalence, right? Sort of like the Unpaid Work forum, but, you know, named differently.
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« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2009, 06:20:23 PM »

Shit, things must be going bad for me because US$800 doesn't sound too bad.

The little bits of contract work I've been doing to make ends meet hasn't been paying as well as that; $800 could cover my rent and groceries for a couple of months.
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« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2009, 06:33:14 PM »

haha, if you lived in mainland europe you'd probably think differently!  it's one of the reasons it's such a tricky issue
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Seth
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« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2009, 07:46:25 PM »

I always thought there should be an in-between board, too--not even for this problem, but just that there may be some pixel artists looking for something in between and it'd be nice if they didn't have to slog through the unpaid to find the low pay/non competitive rates
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2009, 08:06:51 PM »

yea im gonna work on that article and think some more about how to tackle organizing nominal compensation offers without creating too much extra maintenance for myself and/or future moderators...again its not fair to judge ALL low-paying jobs this way, but frequently low pay coincides with a lack of industry experience which can sour the job in many other, much more stressful ways than just money.  This is based on me doing freelance pixel art in order to like put food on the table for like 3 years!  Generally the posters who get harrassed on the pixelation job postings are not just the people who can't afford to pay, they're the ones who set off all kinds of warning bells in my contractor brain...

So yeah, not fair to judge everybody this way, and assigning a minimum number is not a good fix, and I will definitely work on providing more information to both contractors and contract..eees?  as well as continuing to work on the problem of organizing the job postings Smiley
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 08:11:01 PM by AdamAtomic » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2009, 12:17:51 AM »

How about assigning a poll or thumbs up/down for each of those posts on that forum, so that people can say whether they think it is well paid or not? Actually I guess that doesn't work either as people from different countries would have different opinions about whether it is well paid or not.
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2009, 09:30:05 AM »

Well and as much as I hate the idea of experience coming into play for ANYthing, this is one place where having had to actually live off of contracts for a few years has helped me learn what is and isn't possible/reasonable/etc.  So I do think there is something to be said for kind of autocratic filtering of content in that particular area of the board.  But differing regional monetary values, differing perspectives (just breaking in versus doing it fulltime), and my own intuition about how trustworthy or reasonable a client might be all combine to make this a really really hard problem to think about and/or fix!

The other issue is that even if I do change the rules and reorganize things, nobody reads the rules anyways Tongue  And I do think that no matter what, since there will always be a "main" job board, that there is always going to be some priority issues.  I could potentially work out like a tags system maybe?  So jobs in the main forum could be tagged [PRO] or [BUDGET] or something?  That way they'd have the same visibility...but users can edit their posting subjects so we wouldn't have full control over that categorizationnnnn

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« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2009, 10:07:21 AM »

I'm glad to see the movement of this thread shift to what Adam needs to write, and I have to agree with Adam's actions in this case. A contract/agreement I've gotten roped into (and fortunately untied back out of) was the contract where you are paid based off of the sales of the game. So you work at a fixed rate, lets say $60/hr, and record your hours. Then when the game is done, you are paid your initial contract based on the money made from the sales of the game. I'm sure you can see a lot of problems with this model, but I've been offered several contracts like this, and I was working on one when I was desperate for work but quickly backed out of it when I got my new job.

A lot of small companies/teams will try to get quick work done through cheap rates/late pay-offs from independent contractors, but from my experience if you want to actually see your cash you have to be very frank. You have to tell the employer at the beginning about expected payments, periods of pay, and how much extra work/maintenance you are willing to do on your own software without getting paid after the initial contract. Sometimes that can be really difficult if your employer is very friendly and easy to talk to, but when you're dealing with professional work you have to be somewhat grown-up about it (even if the work isn't grown up :D )

Maybe cheaply paid work could be labeled as "charity/portfolio booster" work. This would let the employer/contractors know this type of work will not help you feed your family, but it'd be some nice pocket change while you expand your portfolio. I know I've done some cheap PHP projects on the side for an extra $300 here and there, but that money mostly goes towards video games and pizza nights.
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2009, 08:48:51 PM »

Ok I took a crack at a writeup on the topic, definitely open to feedback and suggestions:

1 - From beginners (at either freelancing or hiring): was anything confusing or unclear?  Anything you would like to know more about?

2 - From veterans (at either freelancing or hiring): did I get anything just plain wrong?  Any subjects I missed that are particularly important?

Here is the article: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/AdamSaltsman/20090724/2571/Pixel_Art_Freelance_Best_Practices__Guidelines.php

Thanks!
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« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2009, 09:13:18 PM »

Cool! Very useful! So, here's my feedback:

Some odd phrasings I caught that could stand to be clarified:

Quote
Remember, if you have to actually explain that that's part of your offer, you obviously can't actually provide it!

Quote
As the employer, make sure you either have an actual budget and did all your planning!

It might also help to add actual sub-headings separating the sections aimed at artists and the sections aimed at employers; I had to stop a few times and remember who you were speaking to.
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« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2009, 09:16:37 PM »

I think the section on leaving the budget up to the artist is written in a too abrasive style to get the point across to the people who actually need to hear it.  I mean, someone who thinks it's a good idea to leave the pay up to the artists will not be super inclined to listen to you after you call their idea juvenile and crap -- emotionally this feels the same as calling *them* juvenile and crap.  Say something a little more formal, less emotionally charged.  Also, it would be a good idea to elaborate on what can go wrong in practice in this scenario in terms of not just the artist's side, but also the project side, or the quality of the work -- are they less likely to get good results, a good reputation, etc.
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AdamAtomic
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« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2009, 09:25:41 PM »

excellent, noted!  Matthew Wegner also reminded me that the price ranges I brought up are specifically for the game industry only; lots of other industries like pixel art (advertising, publishing) and are willing to pay buckets more for it.  I'm gonna collect feedback over the weekend and do another draft on monday I think.

Also in the short bio at the top I should probably add that I've hired a bunch of different artists as well?  Might help anyways

EDIT - Arne reminds me that I didn't explain that when you increase the size of an animated piece of pixel art, you often have to increase the number of animation frames to keep the relative level of smoothness.  E.g. at 8x8 4 frame walk cycles are quite smooth, but at 32x32 you need at least 6, and higher you need 8 or 12, etc.  This can definitely have a huge impact!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 04:13:26 AM by AdamAtomic » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2009, 03:05:41 PM »

LOL at "This can be a lot of money for somebody in New Zealand" - it's true Sad

Upping the resolution is a massive pain even if you're NOT working directly in pixels. The most recent commissioned thing I did was for one of those photo-boards where people stick their heads through holes in the picture and have their photo taken. And the image was going to be printed out at 900x1800mm.

Even though I was using the ol' clay style and working with photography etc, which in theory should be fairly resolution-agnostic, I still had to work with a lot more precision and everything had to be checked over very carefully because it was going to be printed out so big. I also had to use bigger models and work with much more detail. It ended up taking far, far longer than making a similar image for web or video. And I ended up taking a bit of a bath on it because the budget was pretty small - and the extra size added a lot more work than I had anticipated.
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« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2009, 03:16:49 AM »

I like how you turned out the thread, and I respect you a lot, Adam.

Still being so rude only because a lot of people make the mistake to drop random prices asking for top level art isn't completely fair, maybe should be better to put some rules about the pricing on pixeljoint, or better some guidelines, so you can just reply with a polite "dear XXXX, I know that budget for indie developers is an hard point most of the times, but i invite you to check the pricing guidelines (link) we at Pixeljoint are trying to follow. Artists are anyway still free to accept or not paid jobs that are under these expectations if they're interested on the project or they feel they're still beginners and they want to help while making experience"
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<Powergloved_Andy> I once fapped to Dora the Explorer
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« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2009, 03:31:15 AM »

I'm wading into the treacherous waters of paying for game art...

I guess, personally, I would rather work with a talented artist who sees the potential in the project and is willing to put in some risk comparable to what I put in. I tend to split design, do all the code and all the music. Its a huge commitment and a huge risk, and the only way I get a salary is out of whatever money I have lying around from the last project.

(ever wonder why I have nervous breakdowns? holy shit)

Anyways, its hard to go from that to "oh you want to get thousands of dollars of my money in advance to do one component of this project while I do all the rest of them for free... okay cool... great".

Like let me hold your hand while I walk through burning coals with poison dart traps and collapsing ceilings.

Seriously, I understand and I'm sympathetic to the commissioned art side. But I really appreciate when I get to collaborate with artists who "get it" and aren't more worried about a paycheck than making something cool that will go way beyond whatever shitty D&D characters they're commissioned to draw for the month.

It takes a great deal of trust, and I guess that's really rare.

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« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2009, 04:41:59 AM »

yes, they are...
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« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2009, 07:40:58 AM »

It requires more than trust though, it requires the actual means to stop taking paying jobs and dedicate yourself to something you'll own.  This is not mutually exclusive of what I'm writing about, this is like what you graduate to once you're mentally and physically able to.  Contracting for the game industry at least is not a viable long term career; it's too unstable and the salary caps are too low.  My personal career goals tend toward contracting for the game and more importantly the advertising industry if I have no other way to buy food.  Otherwise I work on internal projects or collaborations, because these are orders of magnitude more awesomer.  Also many employers, shockingly, are relatively greedy and do not want to share revenue OR pay fair prices; it is important I think for there to be popular, public guidelines to ensure that if an artist is not receiving revenue shares they are at least making enough to hold them over to their next job!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 07:45:19 AM by AdamAtomic » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2009, 10:05:17 AM »

Ok rewrite GET - thanks for all the feedback!  http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/AdamSaltsman/20090724/2571/Pixel_Art_Freelance_Best_Practices__Guidelines.php
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