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[Alec]

Artists totally need money!

Yeah, I agree 100%.

I'm definitely not against investing my own money, upfront into an artist, but that artist would have to be really fucking amazing - and that's even more rare than trust.

And before I can get to the point where I feel comfortable investing my hard-earned money in trying out an artist, they have to somehow prove that they have the right attitude... and for me that usually means seeing that they are more excited about the concept than they are about the size of the paycheck.

Its an ugly space to get into for a naive idiot like me. It leaves me with a creepy feeling in my gut. I feel like I'm trying to compete with companies like Blizzard for art talent. I don't feel like I should have to. The big execs aren't putting as much on the line as I am to make a game. If my next big game fails, I'll have to work at MacDonalds to make ends meet. If the big exec fails, he'll just go on to be a suit somewhere else. And he was still on salary the whole time.

Really, I'm looking for someone who wants the kind of creative collaboration and level of control they wouldn't get at places like Blizzard, while accepting the risk that comes with that.

In any case, my point is that I understand the starving artist needing pay side of things. Its pretty straightforward, and I would like everyone to get paid shit tons of money for their good work.

I just wanted to explain that there's a sole-business-owner-coder-musician-designer-who-needs-artist side to it as well.

 

[AdamAtomic]

yeap!  I agree, it's actually IN the article in a couple places:

Code:

bring an artist on as a partner (creatively, not just financially)

in the "what if paying buckets of money up front isn't great for me" section

[Eclipse]

also because collaboration is the "indier" way...

outsourcing the art is a bit like doing only a part of the game. I know that even having an artist on your team is still doing only the code while he does the art, but... it doesn't feel the same, there's not that "hey look at what i did! isn't it cool?" and instead something like "yeah i'm following the planning, i'll mail you the assets asap".

Also being the boss of someone feels even more unconfortable than being the employee to me :\

[AdamAtomic]

I'm not sure if it will help or anything but I can lay out our basic company practice for hiring artists for our iPhone projects?  Our basic approach is to do BOTH things.  We pay an advance that can cover, at a kind of reasonable rate, most of the time and energy required to make most of the assets.  The artist in turn is a full team member, getting input on the design, helping to test, etc, and they also get a BEEFY revenue share, even if they're only contributing music.  However, since their initial payment is an advance, they don't see royalties until the advance is covered.  Also I only hire people who are quantifiably more talented, faster, and more creative than I am in their respective fields.  It is only under these conditions that I can even begin to deal with the idea of actually hiring a human!

[Alec]

outsourcing the art is a bit like doing only a part of the game. I know that even having an artist on your team is still doing only the code while he does the art, but... it doesn't feel the same, there's not that "hey look at what i did! isn't it cool?" and instead something like "yeah i'm following the planning, i'll mail you the assets asap".

Also being the boss of someone feels even more unconfortable than being the employee to me :\

Having to manage people who don't care about what they're doing anywhere near as much as you do is the worst job in the world.

[Alec]

I'm not sure if it will help or anything but I can lay out our basic company practice for hiring artists for our iPhone projects?  Our basic approach is to do BOTH things.  We pay an advance that can cover, at a kind of reasonable rate, most of the time and energy required to make most of the assets.  The artist in turn is a full team member, getting input on the design, helping to test, etc, and they also get a BEEFY revenue share, even if they're only contributing music.  However, since their initial payment is an advance, they don't see royalties until the advance is covered.  Also I only hire people who are quantifiably more talented, faster, and more creative than I am in their respective fields.  It is only under these conditions that I can even begin to deal with the idea of actually hiring a human!

This makes wonderful sense, but only works if you have enough money available to cover such an advance - which isn't always the case.

[AdamAtomic]

Yea, of course!  The highest profile, most enjoyable work I've done in the last year was all done basically for free.  I don't regret a single bit of it!  Like the article says, lots of jobs don't pay cash, and that's awesome, and finding the right project like that (*cough*wurdle*cough*) can be a HUGE kind of life-changing thing.

That said, there are plenty of independent developers who supplement their income by contracting; this isn't a weird or rare thing.  It is a kind of complicated, difficult thing upon which I can shed some light.  Providing a visible, public point of reference for clients who don't want partnerships or revenue sharing agreements (and for artists who do need money so that they can like buy sandwiches and medicine) is a good idea, regardless of the long-term psychological and financial benefits of successful collaboration.

[Alec]

Fo sho! I'm not debating that. I think your article is a great reference for those types of situations.

In fact, what I'm talking about doesn't have so much to do with your article - its more about shitty experiences that I've been through.

I guess another point I'm getting at is, sometimes artists can be d-bags too. And I don't clearly understand how to protect myself from that breed yet.

I guess I'd appreciate it if someone could write an article about how to single-handedly run a business, develop multiple games simultaneously and find trustworthy artists without feeling like a nervous wreck.

ahahaha... yeah. I'll stop venting now.

[AdamAtomic]

Nah I actually sympathize a great deal in this regard.  Instead of solving this problem I just spent like two years making shit rates just so I could learn how to do my own art    Not even Jon Blow or TGC are able to find artists they trust without months of concerted effort and they are adored by even the mainstream media, and actually have salaries and stuff!  Is a shit-hard, mean problem, and I totally wish I knew how to solve it.

[Alec]

Nah I actually sympathize a great deal in this regard.  Instead of solving this problem I just spent like two years making shit rates just so I could learn how to do my own art    Not even Jon Blow or TGC are able to find artists they trust without months of concerted effort and they are adored by even the mainstream media, and actually have salaries and stuff!  Is a shit-hard, mean problem, and I totally wish I knew how to solve it.

Haha, maybe learning to do my own art is the key. But one would have to have pretty huge balls to pull that off. (respeck)

I think the other component is that collaboration is way more enjoyable to me than just making something entirely by myself - at least, when it works. So even if I could do all my own art, I don't know that I'd want to. (or if it would be physically possible given the scope of what I want to do)

But yeah, its definitely rare to find collaborations where both parties "get it" and everything turns out to be awesome. In spite of personality clashes, arguments and the other 'annoying' things that come with collaborating, it can be a really joyful experience.

[Derek]

Thanks, Adam!  I added it to the Tutorials forum.

Regarding finding an artist to work with for an entire game, just make sure they've done it before.  Most straight-up freelance artists I know would not be ready for the type of work and the schedule it takes to do art for a game.  They're used to maybe spending a week or two on an illustration and that's that... take a break!  The idea of working every day for months on game art would be pretty alien and stressful to them.  (e.g. That ION Storm artist who painted a 1300x960 pixel texture map for a tiny arrow head in Daikatana.)

Multidisciplinary dudes like Adam who can do it all and understand the process so well on all ends are a rare breed, indeed (hopefully less rare as time goes on?), and most independent developers can't afford an artist of that caliber.  In any case, expectations are always the killer.  I'd always start out a potential collaboration on something small and see how it goes from there.

[Lyx]

Heh, you really can't get over the Ion Storm debacle, hmm? Though, i have to agree that the story is interesting, and that it contains a lot of stuff to learn from.

[Derek]

Yeah, I re-read it every year - imo it's the most high-profile and revelatory story about dysfunction within a game company ever.  And it's very relevant for indie developers looking to collaborate (especially if you read Masters of Doom, too).

So no, I'm not going to get over it until a more epic story comes about!

[Anthony Flack]

Most straight-up freelance artists I know would not be ready for the type of work and the schedule it takes to do art for a game.  They're used to maybe spending a week or two on an illustration and that's that... take a break!  The idea of working every day for months on game art would be pretty alien and stressful to them.

For SURE. Personally, right now I feel like I have done almost nothing but churn out animations and art assets for the last two years; we're talking about literally thousands of images, all for the same project, all in the same style. It can break your heart. The one good thing about picking up small contracting jobs is that it gives you a break from that.

But the main reason game artists do this contract work is because we already ARE doing our own projects and collaborations, for free. And thanks to that, we're broke and desperate and seriously, can struggle to afford food sometimes. And doing contract art beats working in a supermarket.

[Loren Schmidt]

I just wanted to say I really appreciate the way you two worked out your differences.

Adam- you know I love you. Keep doing what you do.
Radek Koncewicz- welcome, I hope to see you around the boards.

[Eclipse]

Haha, maybe learning to do my own art is the key. But one would have to have pretty huge balls to pull that off. (respeck)

   
 


well that's the only solution i've found really, i'm doing all the graphics for my game at the moment and even if i like how it's slowly turning, it's still a pain in the arse...

[aeiowu]

Yeah, I re-read it every year - imo it's the most high-profile and revelatory story about dysfunction within a game company ever.  And it's very relevant for indie developers looking to collaborate (especially if you read Masters of Doom, too).

So no, I'm not going to get over it until a more epic story comes about!

Totally agree. Mike and I reference Masters of Doom all the time when we're going through struggles. It helps us cope and find some kind of perspective in certain situations.
--

As for finding people: it's hard. It took me 5 years of vetting through dozens of fellow students before I found _one_ programmer that I worked well with. Even then it's not sunshine and rainbows, believe me. Shit gets ugly.

It seems cliche to me now, but I see a partnership as a marriage. For me, I have a hard time finding women I can fall in love with, i've only had two serious girlfriends. So... I guess you could say I'm picky. Even then those didn't last more than 2 years a piece. So with a dev-partner, finding someone->finding the right person->then having the stamina to stay with them through all the arguments, fights, etc. is really really really tough. To top it off... there's no make-up sex since we're both straight!   
Sometimes I think our lives would be a bit easier if we both liked dudes...

I think the reason nobody really has any good answers for this very-common problem is because it's always specific. Specific to what kind of person you both are, your sense of humor, how you handle conflict, the way you chew your food. Everything! Matching thousands of personality traits with someone else _perfectly_ is impossible, especially since we're always changing and adapting.

The best thing you can do? Date. Jam with people. Have casual development (read sex) all over the place. Learn from bad experiences, what you liked, what you didn't. But once you're in it to win it, COMMUNICATE! I bet if you bought a book on marriage counseling you'd see the same sappy advice: "Every conflict is the result of a breakdown in communication." Ok, i'm done.

[Alec]

^ Yeah, I think a big part of collaborating is being able to deal with the ugly moments in a way that allows things to continue - rather than getting hung up on them.

[Alec]

Regarding finding an artist to work with for an entire game, just make sure they've done it before.  Most straight-up freelance artists I know would not be ready for the type of work and the schedule it takes to do art for a game.  They're used to maybe spending a week or two on an illustration and that's that... take a break!  The idea of working every day for months on game art would be pretty alien and stressful to them.  (e.g. That ION Storm artist who painted a 1300x960 pixel texture map for a tiny arrow head in Daikatana.)

Multidisciplinary dudes like Adam who can do it all and understand the process so well on all ends are a rare breed, indeed (hopefully less rare as time goes on?), and most independent developers can't afford an artist of that caliber.  In any case, expectations are always the killer.  I'd always start out a potential collaboration on something small and see how it goes from there.

There are cases where its valuable to tap an artist who hasn't done games before specifically because they are fresh to it. (unique style, different perspective, etc)

In those cases its worth having some way to demonstrate exactly what work is involved in creating art assets for the project so you can get on common ground quicker.

Still, its dangerous to assume that when people say they can and will do something that they're actually aware of what they're doing - even if you've explained it in great detail.

[Lyx]

The best thing you can do? Date. Jam with people. Have casual development (read sex) all over the place. Learn from bad experiences, what you liked, what you didn't. But once you're in it to win it, COMMUNICATE! I bet if you bought a book on marriage counseling you'd see the same sappy advice: "Every conflict is the result of a breakdown in communication." Ok, i'm done.

Thats a rather naive and inefficient advice - then again, getting married may be a bad advice in the first place :-P

Conflicts of interest are normal, unless you have robots working on something (and even then, conflicts may arise , because people have different intentions. While its true that open and clear communication is important, and that its the only way to resolve conflicts, some conflicts cannot be resolved without someone doing something which he/she doesnt really want (thus, the conflict isn't resolved, but just "subdued"). Such unresolvable conflicts can only be ended by both parties not colaborating in that aspect. To put it simple: Some stuff just doesn't work together, no matter how hard you try.

Thats why its important to have a clear idea about the path forward in the first place, instead of having problematic surprises later. That way, such "incompabilities" can be avoided from the beginning on.

Most importantly: Mindsets matter! Small ability deficits can fixed by learning, new situations can be adapted to - but different mindsets stick with you for a long time.