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[Eclipse]

Fist i had to say that I LOVE Robot Dinosaurs.

Now let's start with the current discussion, I worked for three years here in italy, in small and middle-sized software houses, and a lot of them act in that same manner.

Here's where things get messy though: My contractual hours are 10 til 6:30 Monday to Friday, but I actually work from 10 til 8 or 9, and I just got a phone call asking why I didn't show up today (Saturday).

that's normal... people usually works the Saturday in a lot of places, i could leave when i wanted, but sometimes i even did nights working when i had to meet a deadline, that's something you can't do nothing about, if you accept a schedule you need to meet it, even if it will lead to do extra hours... the trick here is to not accept crazy deadlines from the start.

I get paid £50 a week (that's about a quid an hour)

Ok, that's SLAVERY, say them to fuck off, I was paid around 50 EUR a day (around 1300-1500 eur per month, taxes excluded), basically more in a day than you get in a week, even if your one is an entry-level job that's not fair at all, i'd pay you more for some animations as freelance job if i had the money.

Leave with a big "FUCK YOU!" and slam the door, you can do much more on your own, from house, with flash games.
Luckly not every team is like that...

[increpare]

I was pretty sure that your original post was a joke when I read it first.  I still don't really believe that you would be that stupid.

hmm.

[Eclipse]

c'mon increpare, i bet it's already an hard situation as it is!
He surely got the wrong way, but i can understand that starting in the industry leads to ungrateful situations most of the times.

For me, for example is that i expected to be "in the industry" and I discovered that i was working for a bunch of idiots that knew way less than me about how to make a game.

Tom, you really got talent, I'v just played Legend of JOHNNY and it's fuckin' amazing, you can aim way, WAY higher than this.

I really wish i had some spare money to do an xbox live game with you

[mewse]

The question you have to ask yourself is why you should stay there.

You might choose to stay for the money.  (Actually, based on what you've said, this one isn't a compelling reason)

Or if not, you might stay for the money-down-the-road, when the project you're working on is released, becomes a runaway best-seller, and your share of the profits make you absurdly wealthy beyond your wildest dreams.  (Only applicable if they've given you a share in the company, or if there are royalty rights already written into your employment contract.  I assume that neither of these is the case, and so this one is probably also out.  But if you do have one or the other, you need to make your best guess about whether the game is likely to ever be released, and whether it's likely to actually become a runaway best-seller)

Or you might want to stay just for the experience;  simply to learn from the people who've done this stuff before.  (This will depend on how awesome the people around you there are, and on how much that's worth to you)

Or maybe you think that if you keep working there for a while, it'll make it easier to get your foot in the door at a different company later on.  This can work, but it only works if you actually release at least one game while you're there, and that game receives halfway-decent reviews.  So if this is your reason for staying, you need to do some soul-searching and decide whether you think they'll release a game which is reviewed favourably.

Or you might be working there because there's nothing better available.  (Actually, you say that you'd earn more by working as an entrepreneur, so this isn't it.  But if this was it, you definitely want to be looking for another job while continuing to work there;  it's always worth looking to find that "something better"!)

Or maybe some other reason that I haven't thought of.  But you need to find a reason to stay;  a reason other than simply inertia;  that that's what you're already doing, and therefore it'd be too much effort to change now.  If you can find a reason, and the reason makes sense to you, then go for it.


(But with all that said, it sounds like a terrible place to work, to me.  But I'm not the one who has to live with it, so it's really not my call.) 

[I_smell]

It's slightly worrying how everyone's asking how I think the game will be when it comes out- because the game doesn't look that great, and I don't think the audience of our priority platform is gonna pick it up at all. I really think they've chose the wrong platform to focus on. Y'all know what I mean; they WANT to release it on platform X when it's much better suited to platform I.

Also the issue of who I'm learning from is slightly shakey. The boss has a good few years of experience, but everyone else is either straight out of uni or currently studying. People come in from time to time who've worked in games for decades and that really shows.

I really wish i had some spare money to do an xbox live game with you

Thanks, I'd be up for that.

Anyway the boss and the sub-boss (mini-boss?) are away this week, so I don't wanna leave them totally in the shit, and I don't fancy explaining my problems to anyone who isn't the boss. So maybe I'll just hang on for a week.

[Jason Bakker]

Yeah, it sounds like, from their perspective, they're bringing you on as an internship, with some slight monetary benefits, but to them it isn't as if you're an actual employee there yet. It's quid pro quo with them getting cheap work, and you getting experience. But in that case, they definitely shouldn't be working you into the ground the way you are. If you are integral to their process, bring it up and ask to become a proper employee, and if not, then they shouldn't be asking you to come in and work crazy long hours.

I know you're probably not a confrontational person, neither am I, so the idea of talking to them and saying "pay me a decent wage or I have to go" would seem pretty unappealing... but in the industry (and outside of it, really), you have to be able to stand up for yourself, otherwise you will get exploited like this.

[Eclipse]

Thanks, I'd be up for that.

Anyway the boss and the sub-boss (mini-boss?) are away this week, so I don't wanna leave them totally in the shit, and I don't fancy explaining my problems to anyone who isn't the boss. So maybe I'll just hang on for a week.

I think that in this situation that's the best and the most professinal way to act, explain to the boss\mini-boss in private that you was expecting much more from the work when they'll be back and then leave.
I did exactly the same with my last job, i was expecting to work on a wii\pc game but they got short on funds during the development and the entire team switched to iphon\mobile\flash crap, the sort of thing i can do myself during my spare time, I wasn't under a contract (they always delayed that matter) so i just dropped the ball.

Another collegue followed me shortly after and now we're working on our own game, trying to fund our own indie software house  

[bateleur]

The point of minimum wage isn't solely to sue people (which would be pointless in this case). The existence of a minimum wage level provides a negotiating tool for employees in an otherwise weak position to prevent exploitation by their employers.

That said, I don't see this case as employment. The unnamed game company is exploiting I_smell's desire to be in the industry by persuading him to do voluntary work for them. This basically is an unpaid voluntary post, with the only difference being that they are misleadingly not characterising it as such. The £50/w is just confusing the issue.

[Destral]

50 quid a week is way below minimum wage in the UK, so that should be a warning sign right there. If you're telling me they're trying to haggle you even below that, the company doesn't deserve the time you are putting in there.

If I were you I would request a reasonable salary for the work you are doing, and barring that, would quit. Like you said, you make more money making your own games and selling them. Those conditions are inexcusable, no matter how tight their budget is.

The only reason why I would suggest staying there would be if you feel you are gaining invaluable experience, the game is going to be halfway decent, and your name is going to appear in the credits. That right there will open some doors for you in the future. On the other hand, however, if you can make your own games, and they are good, there really is no reason for you to work there unless you feel you are gaining something you think you can't gain elsewhere.

[undertech]

Leave and take the statue with you. Who do these people think they are, blizzard?

[obscure]

Without seeing the job advert or being involved in the interview it is impossible to know if they misled you or you just misunderstood what they were offering re job vs internship. Because of that it is unfair to pass judgement on this company - even if they do have a statue that gets paid more than you!

What it is possible to say is that it is never ever sensible to stay in a job that doesn't meet your needs. A quick look at the news will show that game companies routinely shed loyal staff whenever it is necessary for the business. You are engaged in a business relationship and you should not let you personal feelings for the other staff cloud that.

Most peoples needs include:
Being happy (in some measure) in their job - doesn't sound like you are.
Getting paid enough - nope.
Gaining something else of value such as work experience - doesn't sound like the experience you are getting is worth much.

I would approach this as a simple business issue and try to avoid any emotion. Ask to speak to the boss and tell them that unfortunately your situation has changed and that you are unable to continue working for free (tell them you rent went up/your folks have started charging you to live at home or something similar). Explain that you enjoy working with everyone there but that you can make more money doing your own games at home so you can't afford to continue unless they can convert your position over to a proper paid position. (You need to have a number in your head as to what is an acceptable salary).

Their answer will tell you exactly how much they actually value you.

[travisdunn]

This reeks of exploitation to me as well, and I'll join the chorus advising you to leave. An internship should provide the environment and/or training for you to advance your skills from amateur to professional levels, and this doesn't sound like what you've been given.

Confrontation may be hard, but you'll earn more respect from people the sooner you learn to stand your ground, and others won't treat your talents and work with importance or respect until *you* treat them that way first.

I wouldn't make a big deal of the talk, just calmly and as simply as possible explain your reasons for terminating your current arrangement. If they respond with emotional appeals or anger, you know they were probably trying to manipulate you or at least do not view the relationship very professionally. If they respond with surprise and panic, they are probably good guys with poor management and finance skills.

Finally, you can always offer to contract with them if they grow desperate, though of course you'd want to raise your rates.

On that note, one of the things I think anyone should ask before going into a company is: "how many months can the company continue operating off money in the bank and no profit?" If you have any suspicions or even curiosity about a company's solvency, this is a good question to ask. Any solid company will give you a reasonable answer, either with a reliable number or else an explanation of their funding strategy.

[Alex May]

Man get the fuck out of there right now, you could get in some serious trouble with the inland revenue depending on what you signed and your employment status. 50 quid a week is a crime mate. Get out of there. What is this place, DDI? Shop these twats on your way out and do the industry a favour.

If you've signed an employment contract and you're being paid cash in hand... well I don't know the ins and outs but that is highly irregular and probably a tax dodge, and since it's well below minimum wage you're getting royally stiffed. You should be looking at £14-16k p.a. for a junior animator.

50 fucking quid a week. Fuck me. Let me know who these guys are by PM and I'll put the word out on a private industry forum for people to avoid.

[Ed]

See the section "What should you do if you're not getting the minimum wage?" on this page:

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/employment/employment-terms-and-conditions/the-national-minimum-wage-2/the-national-minimum-wage-1.htm

Also you can phone ACAS - www.acas.org.uk

They really are exploiting you, whichever way you look at it. Also it seems very doubtful that you'd be learning good industry practices and working on a worthwhile project at that kind of place (this is pretty evident anyway from some of your posts).

Good luck!

[I_smell]

Okay I'm back after reacting to this. I haven't read these recent posts though, so quickly:

Confrontation may be hard, but you'll earn more respect from people the sooner you learn to stand your ground, and others won't treat your talents and work with importance or respect until *you* treat them that way first.

I wouldn't make a big deal of the talk, just calmly and as simply as possible explain your reasons for terminating your current arrangement. If they respond with emotional appeals or anger, you know they were probably trying to manipulate you or at least do not view the relationship very professionally. If they respond with surprise and panic, they are probably good guys with poor management and finance skills.

Thanks, that's brilliant advice.

Shop these twats on your way out and do the industry a favour.
Let me know who these guys are by PM and I'll put the word out on a private industry forum for people to avoid.

I might do this. Not to spite anyone, just so I can definately feel like I'm not alone. I'd love to say I'm gettin advice from professionals, but it'd sound a bit stupid if they knew I was doing it on the internet.

See the section "What should you do if you're not getting the minimum wage?" on this page:

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/employment/employment-terms-and-conditions/the-national-minimum-wage-2/the-national-minimum-wage-1.htm

Good luck!

"Apprentices under the age of 19 and apprentices who are 19 or over and in the first 12 months of their apprenticeship are not entitled to the National Minimum Wage."
I'm pretty sure at this point that I am on an internship. I couldn't tell at first because I was the only animator on the team and was working employee-hours. But I am.

So what happened?
The boss was away for a week or so, and he got back today. We were talkin about feedback on some animation work and I said
"I'm gonna have to push back what I'm doing now if I want to work on this new feedback."
He said "Well you'll have to do overtime."
I said "We need to have a meeting." and then started talking about all this.
How I can't keep workin overtime for this much money, I'll never work weekends, everyone I know is laughing at me and my family think I'm an idiot for staying here.
He basically shot down everything I said with stuff like most apprenticeships last a year and pay nothing, this other guy works the same as me and doesn't complain, he knows people who can do my work for free etc etc. I should decide whether or not I want to work in games because it's like this everywhere etc etc.

At this point I'm tryin to work out what I'd do after I quit this job, and I'm pretty devastated that he had an immediate comeback to everything I'd thought of, so I went home to think about my options. I spent the rest of the night talking to family about my job.
Tomorrow I'm quitting. I need to make VERY SURE though that it's not because I can't do it or I'm not ready or anything, it's because it's not worth it.

I'm gonna have to spend the next HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES making indie games, keepin myself up, and jumping on every opportunity I have to contribute to a team.
Actually, to be 100% honest I'm gonna take it really easy for a while. My next game, Blastmaster Borris, is a good example of me taking it easy.

Check out I-smel.newgrounds.com to see me blog about this like a loser. I keep my composure at TIG, cos you guys all wear big-boy pants.
Long story short I'm telling them tomorrow that I need to stop working there, and they've got the next few days to pick up one of these industry professionals who work for free.