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[Paint by Numbers]

towards the end of the previous incarnation of the forums there was some talk of "icebergvania", a game with so much hidden content that most players would never get to see all of it.

See the Insert Credit wiki.

The concept of icebergvanias (what a great word) have fascinated me for quite a while. ITT we discuss icebergvanias - what are some games that, in your opinion, come close to the ideal?
Have you ever attempted/seen somebody attempt one?
Would such a game be satisfying to play all the way through?
Is such a game even possible to create (practically)?
What are your thoughts on the matter?

(I apologize if we've done this thread already. Search didn't turn up anything, so...)

[Aquin]

Yeah, a lot of old japanese-only famicom games are super icebergvania.  They seem pretty crappy off-hand, but are at least only mediocre once you explore them a bit.  Atlantis no Nazo, Tower of Druaga, the list goes on.

I don't mind icebergvanias, but man...in this day and age?  It's pretty hard to escape the watchful eyes of Gamefaqs.  I admit that's how I found Hell Temple, Sacred Grounds, AND the Inverse Castle.  There's no way I woulda found that shit on my own.

Okay yeah the inverse castle maybe.

[Paint by Numbers]

Yeah, a lot of old japanese-only famicom games are super icebergvania.  They seem pretty crappy off-hand, but are at least only mediocre once you explore them a bit.  Atlantis no Nazo, Tower of Druaga, the list goes on.

I'll have to check those out!

Would one consider Yume Nikki to be icebergvania? Although it's not a platformer, it's a gigantic game and there are tons of little secrets you might never find. At least one event has a 1/3600 chance of happening.

Of course, if you do get a guide to it and see everything, it suddenly feels sort of empty. Is it even possible to avoid that sort of thing? Is the only way to make an icebergvania that can't be transcribed making a procedurally generated environment?

[MaloEspada]

La-Mulana for sure is a great icebergvania. That game is impossible. Even finding good walkthroughs for it (in text) is difficult.

[battlerager]

You know, I have interesting information on this subject, but if I told you I'd have to kill you.   

[moi]

Bubble bobble
/thread

[Aquin]

Yeah, that whole series.  Rainbow Islands especially was crazy.

If you check the early episodes of Chrontendo, he runs into a lot of those kinds of games.  There was even an RPG shmup that was an icebergvania.  Weird early stuff.

[agj]

I had no idea that Bubble Bobble had massive amounts of secrets.

[Inanimate]

I had no idea that Bubble Bobble had massive amounts of secrets.

That is because they are secrets.

[omnilith]

Wow, I love the concept behind these. A pretty classic example of an Icebergvania would be Wario Land 2. It's not an adventure game, per se, but anyone who just plays through that game just once is missing out on an almost absurd number of hidden worlds and endings. After you beat the game once you are given a map that basically shows you where the levels with hidden exits are, but it's still up to you to find the secrets (and some of them were pretty devious, such as the first level's 'exit')

Now, I'm not sure how many people actually went through and beat all the hidden areas, but for me it was a lot of fun discovering whole new areas, possibly by mistake. Although, I guess the patience to go back through a game and find hidden content really depends on the audience. I get a lot of joy out of the sense of discovery in games, especially when the discovery turns out to be a big one, but I can also understand why some people might want to move on after they've seen the ending.

[Alec S.]

I really like the idea of having large amounts of hidden content.  I'm actually attempting this with Dadaists Gone Wild 2.

One thing that's stayed in my mind why the idea of an Icebergvania is so appealing is that, when I was a young kid, my friends would all make up crazy cheats and hidden things in games that weren't actually there.  I'd like to make games where those types of things are actually there.

[John Nesky]

Oh yeah! Wario Land II! I should go back and play that game, all of it. It was fantastic.

[Paint by Numbers]

One thing that's stayed in my mind why the idea of an Icebergvania is so appealing is that, when I was a young kid, my friends would all make up crazy cheats and hidden things in games that weren't actually there.  I'd like to make games where those types of things are actually there.

This, pretty much, is the reason icebergvanias intrigue me so.

[DrDerekDoctors]

My next game will be of this ilk for sure, although I don't plan on it being hard to see everything, just that there will be so much which requires thought or a really investigative mind that you're simply *unlikely* to see all of it. I hate that feeling in Castlevania's as you know that you are running out of secrets to find, the Castle starts to feel dead and empty. I wanna' avoid that.

[Terrorbuns]

Reading this topic makes me want to make one.
...
That takes place on an iceberg. The name of the game will be Iceberg.
Why do I get these stupid urges and ideas 

[Hempuli‽]

...And then you dive underwater just to realize that most of the iceberg is below the sea level! And that'd be it.

[Terrorbuns]

...And then you dive underwater just to realize that most of the iceberg is below the sea level! And that'd be it.

OHSNAPS YOU KNOW MORE THEN YOU SHOULD 
Assassin time.

I don't normally use a walk-through unless I get really stuck, not normally for finding secrets :/

[Aquin]

Yeah, that'd be neat.  Most people walk right and stay on land.  So just make the rest of the iceberg accessible via an ocean dive on the left side of the map.  Most players will just walk through the surface on the right and finish the game.  They'll never realize the depth they missed.  :D

[Paint by Numbers]

And then the people who do go underwater will find the joke's on them when they realize the real meat of the game is in the caves within the iceberg.

[Aquin]

Yeah and those foolish cave-dwellers will never realize the iceberg sits on top of an underground volcano.  They'll never think to swim through all that lava to get to the final temple.

No hang on, I got off-topic somewhere.