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[Christian Knudsen]

Yeah, I guess this argument has run its course. I actually swore to myself I'd never get into a "what is art" debate when I joined TIGS.  :D

This is worse than a "what is art" discussion. This is a "the only good art is art that uses the newest technologies". Why make black and white movies anymore when we have color? Fuck Spielberg for not making Schindler's List in 3D IMAX! I guess Cameron's Avatar is going to be the epitome of art according to Lurk...

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to see Avatar!

[george]

But the old mario controls fairly well, there is basic inertia when you move around, and it's all linked to the platforming challenges. The old Mario is a bit like the medieval religious paintings of video games: there are things that are not quite right with it, but it's still a pleasant aesthetic experience.

The big problem with this analogy is that medieval religious paintings were doing something completely different than just providing an aesthetic experience. Their form was a vehicle for the religious message and the style created its own aesthetics to get this across. It's the same with contemporary art. Just talking from my own experience, I have two friends, Ethan and Heide:

Ethan


Heide


Both are contemporary artists. Ethan does pencil drawings and Heide does mixed media stuff. Some of Ethan's work is taking photographs of weird situations and drawing them. Heide does stuff like making paper mache sculptures of a horse that fills her apartment, then driving it to Mongolia and leaving it out on the steppe. Would you say one is less of an art work than the other?

I can't believe I posted in this thread. 

[Imagineergames]

OOOOH no, God forbid exposure! Last time I remembered something got exposed to the mainstream (Japanese cartoons) the next thing you knew: the adolescent and prepubescent crowd were all over it.

No seriously, it is nice to see indie has gotten less indie by the day!

[C.A. Sinner]

anime r not cartons u moran!!!! ^_^  T_T XDDDDDDDDDDDD desu

[Imagineergames]

They move, they're drawn, to me they're cartoons! And I love my cartoons, wherever they may come hehe.

[C.A. Sinner]

'Course they are, I was just joking.  :D

[Dragonmaw]

It bothers me that games like Passage tend to get the non-gamer press attention, where games like Dwarf Fortress are barely specks on the radar. I guess I'm sort of a ludologist that way.

the difference is that dwarf fortress is a game for nerds. only techies can appreciate it, whereas anyone can appreciate passage. like, imagine going to a family reunion and showing everyone dwarf fortress. then imagine showing them passage. big difference in impact.

Sure. That's more an issue of execution than concept though.

[Lurk]

It was not my intention to turn this into a 'what is art' discussion- after all, it's a site about games, no? But my opinion on Passage and how I did not think much of it turned quickly to me having to prove my point through various examples which were also attacked with a lot of people second-guessing what I 'really wanted to say'. But I give up. You're right Chrk, I think Avatar is going to be the defining moment in human history- and I really said that the only valid art was that which used the latest technology, and I truly think everyone is gutless except for myself, since I am a glorious hero with a comprehension of the universe that supplants that of everybody else- and not only have opinions which might be flawed, but still valid in some ways. I'm not getting into these discussions anymore, since it seems I really don't get it. Lesson learned.

[C.A. Sinner]

Now, now...

[Imagineergames]

I don't know art but I sure know what I like!

[kinnas]

I don't know art but I sure know what I like!

[george]

well played, well played...

[Paul Eres]

they're dogs! and they're playing poker! aaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

also, remember that lurk is true but partial. he's right that some artistic values take training and effort, and that experience can improve you. but he's wrong that the inexperienced and the people who didn't spend 10,000 hours practicing and honing their craft have absolutely nothing to offer. sometimes something amateur done in a shoddy way can be more important and more interesting than something a guy with 40 years of experience spent 5 years making.

i mean, compare seiklus to spore. clysm, who made seiklus, had very little experience making games. he can't code very well, his games are full of amateur mistakes. seiklus was his first game maker game. yet compare that game to spore, a game which an experienced team and one of the most accomplished game designers in the world (will wright) spend 5 years creating. yet in the long run, seiklus is more important and significant than spore, and is certainly generally higher-regarded by people who played both, despite that huge difference in craft and experience.

the team who made ico, too, had no experience making games; most of them were architecture students or graphic designers. that was their first game. sometimes you don't need mastery of craft to create a masterpiece.

[Christian Knudsen]

he's right that some artistic values take training and effort, and that experience can improve you.

That's the magic word right there.

[Lurk]

Yeah, I guess I was a bit too extreme saying every artistic value takes training and effort. But this thread really opened my eyes. I feverishly made a game in hope to better the world, peace in the middle-east and contribute in making video games the recognized artistic medium status it so deserves. You can try it in the feedback thread. I am doing my part to help the Rohrer revolution!