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[Ammypendent]

[...]

Just try some boomerang walljumps.

That is a major thing that broke Super Metroid. It reduces the depth of traversal. It offers just too much freedom in the set of basic navigation tools.[...]

As opposed to bomb jumping? Or shinespark jumps?

Or maybe you haven't realized that those "broken" mechanics were left in by the designers to encourage the player's curiosity to go outside of the usual path and explore. What it did was create different styles of play (ie: low % runs).

super metroid isn't a combat game

[J-Snake]

super metroid has never been a game about shooting things

like Crysis isn't about shooting, you just happen to shoot things that block your way. I have already described the coin, that Super Metroid is.

I like how Samus feels clunky, since she's wearing a heavy suit of Chozo armor after all... Like maybe the ridiculous amount of turnaround frames in SM could be construed as a bad thing, but I could (and do) just as easily see them as a good thing. Same for double-tapping to go to morph ball. And definitely air momentum, that's like, fundamental to how Samus 'feels'

Nothing wrong with having momentum and turnaround time. The way air control is implemented is an inconsistent hack, not momentum.

[J-Snake]

Or maybe you haven't realized that those "broken" mechanics were left in by the designers to encourage the player's curiosity to go outside of the usual path and explore.

Maybe they allowed arm-pumping on purpose so that tas runners of the future could instantly shinespark. What's broken is broken. It doesn't help to talk sense into it.

You see, a well designed game should allow you to go outside of the usual path by design (if it intends it), not by glitches.

[gimymblert]

there is no consensus on the metric of brokenness

[J-Snake]

Only when you don't care what the game is supposed to be.

[Torchkas]

The sole definition of glitches is that they aren't designed to be there. I'm not sure what your point with that is.
I do think Super Metroid was designed with speed-runners in mind, but it wasn't the central theme of the game. The majority of it is about exploration and the different kinds of atmospheres it's trying to pull off with the limited hardware it has.
The controls aren't an issue. It is true that the SNES isn't powerful enough to efficiently calculate momentum, they usually go around this by just using giant tables that indicate acceleration and deceleration and all that stuff. But even so I don't see a problem with them. The controls work. There's a lot of unnecessary management, but that's because of how limited the gamepad is. I don't think they underutilized anything on that part.

I do agree with you on the combat. I have this feeling they wanted to make it deeper than they should realistically have. Something just feels off about it. It's not really a hindrance to me though. The designers seemed very generous with them pumping you full of health and rockets all the time. It gets very noticeable that they do that.
To say that it's a gigantic issue is ignorant though, I think.

[J-Snake]

It is true that the SNES isn't powerful enough to efficiently calculate momentum

There is nothing to calculate, it is about making movement mechanics more consistent. It is not about simulating real-life physics;)

There's a lot of unnecessary management, but that's because of how limited the gamepad is. I don't think they underutilized anything on that part.

If that was true I wouldn't have a reason to improve it;)

Let's start with the shoulder buttons: You have 2 buttons in addition to directionals for aim-control. That's a lot of ressources. Now, is it justified? What benefit do you actually get compared to the system used in Contra, for example. The only benefit you get in SM is that you can directly crouch and stand up while holding a diagonal aim-direction, and that's it, and it is something you barely need(I turn your own argument against you: it is not about combat, right?). And you cannot even claim that this system is overall superior to Contras since in Contra you can comfortably lock the position and directly circle through all shooting directions. Try to do that in Super Metroid and you will see the level of convolution it involves. So one shoulder button would suffice. I could go on on other things. May be you get the picture. Also weapon selection doesn't have to be that convoluted, think about Crysis.

[Dragonmaw]

Crysis is a first-person shooter, I'm not entirely sure why you keep mentioning it

[J-Snake]

Instead of selecting suit features apply the same principle to Gadget/Weapon selection: press the weapon selection button, a pop up menu appears, and select a weapon-slot by pressing the corresponding direction. That way you can choose between up to 8 gadgets/weapons instantly without the need to circle through them

[Glyph]

Okay, I fucking hate that kind of weapon selection. Like, a lot. I think it's bad for a multitude of reasons. I think that by having it you would ruin Super Metroid. I actually believe this, which is convenient because it leads to my second point.

All these things you're arguing are subjective. Stop talking about them like they're imperical fact. Your ideas hold no more merit or validity than any other thinking person's on the subject.

[Torchkas]

I actually agree with your points, although I think you should elaborate on "making movement mechanics more consistent" unless I missed something.
Super Metroid could have paid more thought to the control scheme. I simply don't know if it's as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

[J-Snake]

Okay, I fucking hate that kind of weapon selection. Like, a lot. I think it's bad for a multitude of reasons.

Can you name just one?

[J-Snake]

I actually agree with your points, although I think you should elaborate on "making movement mechanics more consistent" unless I missed something.

It will be shown in greater detail in my DevLog later. Regarding air control, I find the following solution much nicer, it certainly is more consistent: imagine a discrete separation between "slow" and "fast" horizontal speeds. When you are "slow" there is no momentum, the moment you release a direction you stop moving. That gives fine-tune control. When you are "fast" the horizontal speed is preserved. It means you can jump, turn around in air and shoot backwards or up/down without affecting velocity. But if you wish to decelerate/stop to "slow" speed you can do that.

Now when you observe Super Metroid's air control in comparison, you will see that it's design doesn't really understand when to preserve velocity and when not.

[Glyph]

Okay, I fucking hate that kind of weapon selection. Like, a lot. I think it's bad for a multitude of reasons.

Can you name just one?

Takes up screen space when it's out, hard to use initially (you have to memorize everything's position), hard to get the right direction on the fly (as opposed to the simple action of pressing select).

Of course it has its advantages but it all really boils down to a matter of opinion. Let me propose this to you. Let's say that it doesn't matter how long it takes me to select the Super Missile because I'm standing in an enemy-less corridor trying to open a door. This is how it usually is in SM. Your game might need finer controls but stop looking at SM like an arena fighter, because of course there are improvements to be made from that perspective. They're just so miniscule that they border on subjective.

[J-Snake]

Okay, I fucking hate that kind of weapon selection. Like, a lot. I think it's bad for a multitude of reasons.

Can you name just one?

Takes up screen space when it's out, hard to use initially (you have to memorize everything's position), hard to get the right direction on the fly (as opposed to the simple action of pressing select).

Let's see:

- screen space: do you see that Super Metroid is constanly using up screenspace for gadgets, not only when you need them.
  What will you miss to see in the obscured area on the screen (which can be semi transparent btw.) the moment you select a
  weapon. You know it yourself, nothing.

- memorization: You don't need to memorize anything, you see the slot location and point towards it. You will only need
  memorize it if you want to select the weapon before you see it, instantly. In that case your own system works against you:
  Let's say we have 5 gadgets. With that system you only need to memorize 5 fixed locations, it's all constant. Now with SM-
  selection the selection-path depends on the currently selected gadget, it is not constant. From each item you can
  consecutively reach 4 other ones, which is requires hardwiring 5*4 = 20 combinations, instead of only 5

- hard to get the right direction on the fly : just as hard as aiming towards a direction, which should be no effort at all.
  In SM you have to press 4 times the select button each time you accidently jump over your target

[gimymblert]

As long it work for your vision, the important point is that your vision allow you to stretch things in interesting discussion, people just take heat, not because your vision is wrong, but because you trample on a masterpiece

[Torchkas]

(which can be semi transparent btw.)

It can't.

[rj]

maybe recognize that your personal taste is not objective fact

to wit: super metroid is perfect as what it is: a game about exploring. if it was contra, it'd be awful, but it's not contra.

to wit further: a sort-of-okay case study of what super metroid becomes if it actually is about shooting is cave story. subtract, of course, the narrative threads. leaving pure mechanics, cave story is super metroid, but about shooting and dodging instead of jumping and flying and running and discovery.

to wit even further: super metroid is a phenomenal game that's essentially perfect; only zero mission does its movement mechanics better and only fusion does its base game mechanics better. you're looking at it from the point of view that "this is not a good shooter," which is like looking at f-zero gx and saying "this is not a good platformer" or bubble bobble and saying "this is not a good real time strategy." bubble bobble has strategy in real time, sure, and f-zero gx has jumping from platform to platform at times, but to call either one those things is blatantly ignorant of the goals of their design.

furthermore: to claim that because the tiny similarities to a shooter that super metroid has (the shooting) are subpar when placed into a gunstar heroes context that they are subpar in their own context misses the entire reason that they work the way they do in super metroid (and seems a bit disingenuous besides).

another thought: super metroid's control system has more in common with a point and click adventure than a shooter because super metroid plays closer to the former than the latter. you're intended to take it more slowly than what you suggest. may i say again: i just think you're probably really bad at super metroid

[J-Snake]

to wit: super metroid is perfect as what it is: a game about exploring. if it was contra, it'd be awful, but it's not contra.

So you think borrowing aiming mechanics from Contra would make it Contra?

[Dragonmaw]

Instead of selecting suit features apply the same principle to Gadget/Weapon selection: press the weapon selection button, a pop up menu appears, and select a weapon-slot by pressing the corresponding direction. That way you can choose between up to 8 gadgets/weapons instantly without the need to circle through them

Except that it was changed in Crysis 2, and is much more fluid and responsive, precisely because it removed that system.