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[TheLastBanana]

The part I find interesting about the classic Sonic games is the idea that you'll see different parts of the level depending on how well you're doing. There are pieces of levels in Sonic 2 that I don't think I've ever seen, even though I've played it many times - to this day, I'll find something and say "hey, that's new". The reason I'm still finding different paths is that it's based almost entirely on your speed, which varies from playthrough to playthrough. As well, some levels will send you off a jump that lands you just below another platform, for instance. It's clear you could have gotten to that platform, but only if you were going faster.
That said, I agree with Toom that getting that speed in the first place is very much based on reflexes and predicting what's coming up. However, there's still some really clever design to look at, and it would be nice to see Sega coming back to that someday.

Anyway, as far as Generations goes, I'm going to reserve judgment until there's some more content to see. It seems like a step in the right direction, but at this point, the Sonic series has a lot of steps to take, so I'm not sure what to say about it yet.

[DavidCaruso]

Sonic is not "physics-based"

The very fact that the biggest complaints the most dedicated fans of these games have about Sonic 4 and the like (as well as any fangames that get released) are always about the physics (unlike Mario games, which changed up physics drastically between, say, Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Galaxy 2, and don't get any complaints for it) should be enough to dismiss this, but I'll just link some speedrun videos.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMAfO7QFKzE

All the awesome level gimmicks and loads of multiple paths within the zones (this can especially be seen in Sonic 3 and Knuckles) are built around manipulating Sonic's physics engine, mostly by gaining speed from ramps and jumps but also by bouncing off objects that the level designer strategically placed. In fact, even the horrible level design is built this way (see: a pit with two springs facing opposite directions, mostly prevalent in Sonic 2, which serves no purpose but to delay you a little - it's not too hard to tell that game was the rushed one). The best play is based around subtly manipulating the physics of the game (sometimes putting the engine in situations the developers didn't anticipate - glitches). As for "hidden depths," I'm still finding paths that I hadn't seen before, hidden alcoves in walls, special rings, etc. years later! (And that's sometimes after I had looked at level maps or loaded up ROMs in SonED2, lol)

Another part of the design the classic games had that no one's touched on here yet is the completely unique level environments, each with their own physics-based level gimmicks and themes, as well as the reliance on the numerous set-pieces and events within each level. Sonic 3 had the most extravagant of these events, with a major one every zone starting from Angel Island being set on fire, but a bit can also be seen in the earlier games with the infinite slides in Labyrinth Zone, the lava chasing you in Marble Zone, the earthquakes in Hill Top Zone, etc. Almost no gimmicks and themes were reused from one zone to the next, even in the original game. It's one of those things that seems normal now, but it was really ingrained into the Sonic series over time; this was part of why the Sonic fans bitched and moaned when they saw Sonic 4's levels (complete derivatives of the classic games' levels, complete with the same badniks), while the Mario fans didn't when they saw NSMB Wii's levels, or all those throwback 1-1 levels in other games.

By the way, "holding right to win" on the classic games only works if you only want to blast through the game once (while getting hit several times, and sometimes having to let go of right and hold left, and sometimes running into spike traps, etc.) and not actually get good at it. I don't think any of the best Sonic speedrunners (or scorers, or ring-ers) are just holding right, just like the best beat-em-up players aren't just mashing random buttons or the best shmup players aren't just holding down A and credit-feeding. Quick reflexes are still important, of course (as they are in pretty much all action-based games), but that's not nearly all there is to it.

[Alistair Aitcheson]

Btw The game design of sonic is what makes me a "fanboy", his tropes are underused and underdevelop. As a fine connoiseur of game design It's an interesting buffet for me. Grappling hook had their share of overdeveloping, any platformer are weak derivative of the mario formula, but the more physics based sonic is still something that the elite are trying to achieve.

I definitely agree with this. Sonic isn't really "physics-based" in the traditional sense, but the fact that the game's all about free-flowing movement, the ability to keep on running with momentum, that's what makes it stand out from other platformers. It's a lot like parkour in that sense.

Sonic can run up walls, and run along ceilings, and do loop-de-loops, all seamlessly, and that's what they could explore more of. He's a physics-defying high-adrenaline acrobat, and that's what makes it fun to be him

I do agree with Toom that the level design in Sonic isn't always great - but there's much more to be done with it that should be explored, which I think is what Gimmy was getting at. What if there were sections where you had to jump from loop to loop at the right times or angles? Or more free-running inspired sections, where you had to run at full pelt up a wall and leap over to the ledge on the other side at the right time? This would be awesome. There's plenty that Sonic-style platformers can do that Sonic level designs haven't really explored, and that would be cool to see. The closest I can think of off the top of my head is Super Meat Boy.

What I'm loving about Sonic Colours at the moment is gunning for the S-grades. I thought the level design was a bit iffy first time I played through, but once you start going for S-rank scores you realise there's a lot of depth to the stages. They require you to explore to find the highest-scoring routes, and then trying to follow this route in a quick time without losing your rings demands real concentration. It actually becomes pretty parkour-like this way, fast-paced and full of ducking, dodging, leaping and zooming. I love it.



about a Sonic-style platformer that I've worked on at various times since starting out making games. It didn't really work out in the end, but it's something I keep on coming back to, because I really believe there's more to Sonic-style gameplay than has really been explored.

[gimymblert]

Wow I have not a lot to add to that. I agree with what all of you had said above!

Sonic is much more Toy like that a mario, who is more challenge based. Basically it's a simple set of movement the level support, it's much more like tony hawk complete with half pipe and ramp.

The only thing I may add is that like toys, sonic work with sensory overload, level are total playground and they play with you.

Actually you can see the evolution of the game from sonic 1 which is a more regular platformer with usual platformer puzzle and classic jumping challenge (marble zone exemplify that) with the occasional playground level (spring yard zone). Sonic 2 start to take advantage of sonic movement much more and in much more nuance way with use of subtle ramp and overall rounder layout with more playful use of the two layer of collisions but still mostly straightforward. That's level like chemical plants and metropolis that will first start with the brainfuck layout that totally take advantage of sonic has a physical toy and brought the sensory overload to a maximum (metropolis loop top and bottoms and there is a spot where you can endlessly fall with wall covered with spring, total vertigo guarantied!).

Sonic 3 + knuckles is the top of the sonic level design, and to my knowledge I have never seen "a to b" level design so masterfully done, a single level sometimes feel like a metroidvania (marble garden i'm looking at you). The main design pattern is some kind of "brainfuck", there is an obvious visual path that are not the real path, you think you can simply run across the visual path but there is a gimmick or a level configuration that send you on another path.

What makes the brainfuck awesome is that it's layered with multiple condition that send you on multiple path and it takes into account the double layering of level. For instance if you are on one layer at some playthrough, the next time you might on another layer because of small decision you made earlier, or maybe you just backtrack, and the game is not the same.

Also the game works with some kind of obfuscation through complexities, most of the time in sonic 3 I don't where I am, i'm just confident I'm making progress, even I don't know where the fuck I just land! It hide the simplicity of the path and marvel the player as each time a new situation happen. Enemy play with that, depending on how you navigate they CAN totally mess the timing, timing is important as speed and momentum are affect therefore which path you will choose or land on.

Level design are truly folded and even with a map dump it's hard to plot a path (unlike mario) because there is too much parameter at play. It's emergent as hell.

I can totally make an essay on the diverse gimmick the game employ, some of them like the Top in marble garden are worthy a game by their own because of their intricacy.

So yeah, sonic is truly a monument of level design. One bad Rep sonic had came from the BAD SOAP FURRY ROMANCE satam and archie brought to the franchise, and the constant interaction with those + the game shitty friends did not help. This Fandom are more focus on character relationship, while the fandom raise from the game are really there for the physics and the visual flair that enhance it. I don't see Generation outdoing that.

edit:
I can say the closest mario to sonic is mario 64 which is also very high in my list.

edit 2:
Hey I'm trying to make a sonic clone in 3D that is basically mario 64 meet sonic, that makes sense now

[Alistair Aitcheson]

Interesting what you say there about the toylike stage designs - I'd never really looked at them in that way, but I really agree with what you're saying. I guess that's why I used to keep on coming back to them as a kid, even once I'd beaten them over and over. They were fun to play around in

The funny thing is, I really appreciate the challenge-based level designs and think that they're an area that's really worth exploring. The A-grades in Sonic Adventure 2 (well, the harder ones) and the S-ranks in Colours encourage you to be awesome at being Sonic. The harder levels in Sonic Advance 3 were pretty linear and focused, but they were my favourites because they really kept you on your toes.

I've felt for a while that the 3D Sonic games are at their best when they're like SSX3 (and the less-good ones would benefit from such an approach). But I guess ultimately, there's a mix of challenge and playful experimentation to SSX in just the same way as there is in the S-rank challenges in Colours - to find the optimal route you need to play around, and to execute it you need real focus and skill.

I mention SSX because I never played much Tony Hawks, but was a big fan of SSX3 back in the day ^^;

My personal approach to a Sonic-inspired game would be to make it very much challenge-based, but have those challenges linking from one to the other very fluidly.

[gimymblert]

Old sonic are still challenge based, but there is this layer of richness bring by the toy like aspect that add to the challenge, just look at speedrun of sonic 3 in the most complex level to see that it's awesome best, very parkour like!

Come on man, I like Sonic as much as the next guy who was ten years old when it came out, but it's not the most intricate of gems. You hold down -> on the D-pad and hit literally any button when there's spikes or a big hole or some insect-lookin' motherfucker, and then there's a boss. It's not "physics-based" beyond the fact that you jump a whole bunch and you need a bit of a run-up for some obstacles (something which the introduction of the Spin Dash pretty much eliminated). Oh, and there's a minimal exploration element, I suppose.

I posit that the reason Sonic's design is underdeveloped is because, really, there's fuck all to it.

YOU confuse it with modern sonic sir!





 



  even with shortcut and glitch it's a beast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZV5UNS2y60
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac5nMceyNFA
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU8F5RA_YzA
  i never ever seen that boss ever

We've just seen multiple path EVERY*FUCKING*WHERE
Notice: The blue pillar in marble garden made you roll around him and take a brainfuck path, in those run they jump just before to take the other path (except in one instance)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnWzuiR70x8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6PF2VRy878
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyzC3Rse5Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiMi1fq79BE
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ1aua6NuiU

[Ishi]

  i never ever seen that boss ever

That's the boss you get when playing as Knuckles in S3&K, I believe.

[gimymblert]

edit
@Alistair
The main difference between 3D and 2D for sonic is verticality. Platformer rely a lot on gravity and that's a vertical force. 3D game are more forward and horizontal based, verticality is therefore harder to manage. The way they go with modern sonic is wise from this perspective, except they didn't do a lot of thing with. Sonic was a game about speed not just with speed, every gimmick was powered by speed or momentum, and the game was much more environment (navigating through hazard) based rather than interaction based. The navigation was a challenge + a puzzle.

But how can we translate that in 3D? Verticality can be kept and still be seen from a horizontal perspective. I see some major case:

Pure horizontality
Like every game it's about navigating around elements and hazard in any direction, a maze or a labyrinth is the main aesthetics. It's easy, aside from gimmick that impact navigation, hazard and enemy to avoid, the player can go at it's own pace.

Downhill:
This one is a bit more tricky and gravity start to play a larger role. Basically gravity force you down and therefore impose a way to go and a pace. That's where SSX style gameplay can help, you still have opportunity for multiple path and timing is much more important.

Wall climbing:
It's the exact opposite of the previous case, gravity work against you and prevent you to reach higher place, Momentum is what you need to go farther. You still can have multiple path with gimmick or rest place to help you stick to the wall, but it may forbid some movement like jumping, or any movement that will make you sliding down. This is kept horizontal by having the camera aligning with the character movement for exemple. While some game feature a bit of wall running, parkour like, it's not exactly the same, generally they are just forward horizontal path.

Ceiling running:
One effect of speed and momentum in sonic is the ability to stick to surface. Ceiling run is interesting because it makes the character keep running otherwise he will fall, not counting the dizzying effect of having the entire world reversed.

Freefalling:
Falling can be a way to build momentum, especially if you land on slant surface. Therefore whole design can be build around the idea of falling as seen in some instance of modern sonic gameplay (unleashed, colors, etc)

Stepping stone:
This is the direct translation of 2D vertical gameplay, this should be kept on expert routes for advance user. Or use very moderately with ample margin.

Of course those design pattern can be combine together:
Slant ceiling have gravity pull and the no slow down effect combine with the dizzying reverse world, a bridge toward this pattern and a stepping stone would be a very hardcore feature to pull for the player (especially if he need a free falling land on a downhill slant to gain enough speed to cross the stepping stone).

There is plenty to do

edit:
Another things it can take advantage of is inertia and takes clue from F-zero X.
For example, it use flat curve instead of banked curve, it's more difficult to turn without anticipating and keeping the speed and not being ejecting from the path. A sonic game could take advantage of a reversely banked curve to add a layer of complexity to keep a path. Turning is under used in modern sonic aside from some cinematic effect. Drifting without skidding, controlling speed under a frame windows to avoid ejection without slowing down and lose the contact effect, are challenge unheard of in any game and that could be specifics to a good sonic 3D.

[Alistair Aitcheson]

Really interesting to read your analysis on the games, Gimmy, and I like your ideas for what could be done with 3D Sonic. And watching those speedruns, I can really see the Sonic/parkour connection very strongly! You've obviously thought this through in great depth

In case you're interested, here's the most recent iteration of my Sonic-style game engine in XNA, which I've not worked on since January 2010.



Another thing I remembered is that a game which explores Sonic-style physics is the wonderful Fancy Pants Adventure

[gimymblert]

Thanks, I would not call this my idea, this analysis is level design 101.
You have a very cool engine, it remind me the physics of rush in his current form.



I also have the same type of behavior on the 3D engine I'm working on (which currently is just a port of sonic blitz3D to unity, I will redo it later). I guess that's typical of vector base engine.



This is a fan level based on a mod of that engine (the skydive mod with free falling)

Fancy pant is cool.

Now I'm studying sonic level, I think the focus on mario is way overdone. Mario pad level with new gimmick, sonic does it with the core move! Also sonic level are made with a limited number of big tile of 128px (256 for sonic 1 and 64 for CD) with two layer, achieving diversity with that is truly elite design!

Sonic CD:

61 x  64px square tiles with two layer

Code:

1 2 3 4 5 6 X Z ! @ & ! * C N C W - 0 0 0 X 4 0 + $ 4 4 : : :

7 8 9 8 0 8 0 R # $ N N N T F G Y R N O O 0 X 3 - { 0 S S + N

A 8 B B C 0 C 0 0 0 K 3 5 7 C J J 3 + + N 4 R C { N ] O . - N

D 7 E F G H U O 0 0 ( N N N T U J N C 0 ] 8 } J C \ / ? O R N

4 I J K L M Y S 0 3 0 ) 5 0 0 0 L F U A - ^ N T U < 7 N N V N

N N J O P Q J C R # ( ) - 0 0 A N 0 0 R B 0 + N 0 \ / > N 7 N

N N J C R S L U # A ^ X 3 0 B 0 7 A 0 D N [ ( 4 X N N ~ " 5 N

N N T U ] W W X ^ Z @ ! Z ! * 3 [ ] O O N N N N N N N N 5 N N

Which give:




It's like spelunky but not random


source:
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showpost.php?p=1684522&postcount=177

edit: Too contrast with a typical mario layout

[DavidCaruso]

Sonic CD didn't use 64x64 tiles; both the betas and final MCD versions use 256x256 chunks like Sonic 1 (Sonic CD levels are easily ported to Sonic 1 for this reason), so I don't know where the Penny Arcade guy's coming from. But that just makes it more impressive that they were able to construct such diverse and fluid levels without the versatility of the smaller 128x128 chunks in Sonic 2 and 3 - and also more unimpressive that, once all the nostalgia and childhood memories are taken away, Sonic 2 is the worst of the classic series despite having it easiest in terms of level design (not requiring the preset level events and extravagant setpieces of Sonic 3, and having two layers of collision that could be switched between at any time, unlike 1 and CD).

Also gimmicks are just as important, if not much more, to Sonic's levels than to Mario's - every zone introduces new gimmicks and objects that take advantage of Sonic's bounce and unique physics. This was even the pattern in Sonic 1 - Marble introduced pushing blocks and switches, Spring Yard introduced bumpers, Labyrinth introduced...water I guess, Star Light introduced seesaws and fans, and Scrap Brain introduced the spinning discs, rotating platforms, and conveyer belts. It was part of making each environment unique and memorable, showcasing what could be done with the engine - a physics tech demo showcasing the power of the Genesis.

The physics demo theme carried over to Sonic 1's special stage, using the same core mechanics and controls as the main levels. Sadly, the special stages got increasingly separated from the main game as the classic series went on - Sonic 2's special stage was a half pipe (a.k.a. "memorize the corners"), and Sonic 3's special stage just completely abandoned any mechanical semblance of being related to a Sonic game and made you slow so you could collect spheres. All of the stages were there as technical showcases, though - Sonic 1's special stage showcased fake rotation of the levels in realtime, Sonic 2's showcased prerendered 3D with Sonic taking a set path, and Sonic 3's showcased a full "textured" 3D sphere Sonic could navigate around freely.

I think you're being a bit unfair with comparing Sonic CD levels to SMB1's; a better (and more educational) comparison would be SCD to Super Mario World, the Sonic series' main competitor at the time.

[gimymblert]

Well the penny arcade guy is building a sonic engine that rip the level info directly from the rom! Since he had succeed...
The lay out pretty much speak for itself too!

What's even crazier about the whole microtile thing is that only sonic CD used 64 x 64 tiles. Sonic 2 used 128 x 128 tiles (made up of 64 x 64 tiles) and Sonic 1 used whopping 256 x 256 tiles - made up of 128 x 128 tiles mad up of 64 x 64 tiles made up of 8 x 8 tiles.

The smaller the LAO, the more detail the level has. Sega deliberately shrunk the size from 256 x 256 to 128 x 128 so Sonic 2 could have faster, more complex levels.

The 64 x 64 format of Sonic CD is unique, and part of the reason why Sonic CD's level design is so intricate and different from other sonic games.

Fucking YES, YES

I should have gone to bed hours ago, but I stayed up working on my code, and I finally got this to work.

That's being read from the Sonic the Hedgehog cart. Straight from the game code. Not from anything else. My program actually draws pictures in the same format as the genesis.

Fucking YES.

[DavidCaruso]

Hm, weird. The PC version uses full 256x256 tiles, and full (uncompressed) 256x256 mappings data can be found within all the MMD files of the MegaCD version (though not within savestates, for some reason). I wonder how the Penny Arcade guy's rendering it successfully breaking it down into 64x64 tiles?

(Sadly, that guy's Geocities site linked in the Retro post is gone - a lot of the knowledge there has been transferred to the SCHG pages for the different Sonic CD versions, but the SCD -> S1 level converter program's been lost to history.)

[gimymblert]

The plot thicken

[moi]

All versions of the megadrive hardware uses 8x8 tiles. Except maybe the 32x in some cases

[gimymblert]

Lol yes, but metatiles happen, we are discussing metatiles actually.
Sonic use map of metatile(128px) of metatile(16px) of tile(8px)

[gimymblert]

http://www.sonicretro.org/2011/05/soa-walks-gametrailers-through-green-hill/

New gameplay video of sonic generation:

Interesting nitpick observation is better jump from first video, uncurling fixed, classic spindash, Level are visually based on 2 plan to emulate old sonic plan switching, a lot of visual hint taken from sonic fan remix and mushroom hill fan video remix. But big failure once the automated loop is reach, it's clearly an animation as the jump is snap back on the floor (see at 2m15s) , there is also questionable land formation. But that look good and fun.

Modern section have some more slwer part but still come out as mindless. But damn the game is beautiful, and having mindless speed section after classic section would be a nice diversion.

[gimymblert]

New trailers, city escape revealed:




Bad news:

Next gen.
Rolling is nerf and impede a bit classic gameplay, spindash is overpowered steer the game into abusing him (there is shortcut button fot insta spindash!), level design seems good but not as good as classic, also bottomless pit and no insta shield. Still fun.


classic city escape (adv2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Xx2yFYbZU classic green hill (genesis)

Modern sonic gameplay however is largely improved fro earlier iteration but still miss some improvement made by colors (wall jumping) and slide is a bit jarring at some time. Overall it look like there is more path to take, clearly the star of the game as if they nerf classic on purpose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQLMHlbidH4 modern green hill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc2RMHir8nU modern city escape

both:

[gimymblert]

http://screwattack.com/videos/First-Impression-Sonic-Generations
Skrew attack find the game not so great (gametrailers too)

The physics is still the prime target.

[s0]

Sega is doing it wrong once again. Why am I not surprised?