next »

[JackieJay]

Gnarf: Actually fallout 1 was supposed to be wasteland 2. If memory serves right, EA still owned the rights to Wasteland, hence why Interplay had to use a different name.

Craig Stern: oh wow, mad much ?
If my perception is wrong, then I wonder what's your definition of "new stories". Given the "stating the obvious" nature of the rest of your "article" (more like advertisment for your game), I have a feeling you're literally stating that each indie rpg uses different stories,worlds and characters from the ones in mainstream games.
No shit sherlock, each game uses different stories, wouldn't be much fun playing several games with the same exact story,world and characters, wouldn't it ?

C.A. Sinclair: True, I used that example as it was the first cliche I thought off. What I meant was the setting has a lot to do with the story, for example in a sci-fi setting technology and science usually play a big role, while in a fantasy or medieval setting that sort of thing is not relevant at all for the story. Of course, there are exceptions, but they aren't common.

And I completely agree, the setting shouldn't a limitation for the story, on the contrary. In other genres, most settings are considered generic by now, but the same cannot be said for a RPG. There are a lot that can be done with the RPG genre, but sadly and unlike what the article in question states, indie rpgs rather prefer to stick to the old school and done to death settings and stories rather than go for originality and uniqueness, which is what indie games are known for.

[Christian Knudsen]

That's what I thought. Isn't the core of the current discussion then that JackieJay may have read this as if you're claiming that indie RPGs have better stories/settings/whatever than AAA RPGs?

EDIT: This was a reply to Stern's post, by the way.

[Craig Stern]

That's what I thought. Isn't the core of the current discussion then that JackieJay may have read this as if you're claiming that indie RPGs have better stories/settings/whatever than AAA RPGs?

Maybe. But if he misread it before, he's surely grasped my argument by now, particularly given that you just summarized it for his benefit about two posts ago.

Craig Stern: oh wow, mad much ?

I get irritated when people misstate my arguments. My bad.

[Zaphos]

indie rpgs rather prefer to stick to the old school and done to death settings and stories rather than go for originality and uniqueness, which is what indie games are known for.

Indie games are known for several different things, one of which is filling old niches which the mainstream market no longer caters to.  That's where the indie RPG market happens to be -- as discussed I think earlier in this thread, indie RPGs that are not in a 'classic' setting tend to not sell as well.

[JackieJay]

Craig Stern: Well, since I misunderstood what you said, care to elaborate on what exactly you were talking about ? I dunno, I might be wrong after all, even though I can't see how the stories in indie rpgs can be unique in any way since most of them are based on the same settings and plots as every SNES/genesis rpg.

Zaphos: True, most indie games look and play like retro games, but unless they have something truly original they won't stand out from other indie and AAA games. RPGs are a prime example of that, how many RPGs do you see featured on TIGS every month ? That was my point all along, there is very little unique about most of them, and the story is no exception. Sad fact, but like you said, it's going bankrupt or trying something new.

[Zaphos]

Zaphos: True, most indie games look and play like retro games, but unless they have something truly original they won't stand out from other indie and AAA games. RPGs are a prime example of that, how many RPGs do you see featured on TIGS every month ? That was my point all along, there is very little unique about most of them, and the story is no exception. Sad fact, but like you said, it's going bankrupt or trying something new.

TIGS is not representative of the whole market.  The generic RPGs do sell to their niche.  I do not think I said or implied that "it's going bankrupt or trying something new."

[JackieJay]

TIGS is not representative of the whole market.  The generic RPGs do sell to their niche.  I do not think I said or implied that "it's going bankrupt or trying something new."

indie RPGs that are not in a 'classic' setting tend to not sell as well.

I exaggerated, obviously. As in "Why should I make an original game if it would sell better if I just copied generic SNES title X, changed the characters and story and released it under a new name ? Less work, more profit. Way to go !"

And yeah tigs isn't representative of the whole market, but it's one of the best sources to find indie games, if the game is known, it's here. Alternatively you could go to indiegames.com or rock paper shotgun. Or even gamespot, ign, and so on. You won't find many indie rpgs, let alone one with a little bit of originality. Customers want old school rpgs but they don't stand out, original rpgs (well in comparison with the rest of the bunch anyway) like the spirit engine 2 receive some attention from the indie community but don't sell well. It's up to someone to find that perfect balance, but until we aren't going to see anything truly new anytime soon.

[Zaphos]

Hmm, I guess I seem to have misunderstood what you meant by "it's going bankrupt or trying something new."  I had assumed you meant 'people won't be able to sell their game if they don't try something new,' but perhaps you meant the opposite?

Re seeing anything new in indie rpgs: I think barkley shut up and jam gaiden was pretty original work, though it was freeware so sales weren't an issue for them.

[jwk5]

I think what kills most indie RPGs is they all tend to sail on the same sinking ship. The RPG Maker community especially highlights this problem. It is very hard to find the good RPG Maker games when they're jam packed next to hundreds of lackluster ones. The poor advertising that is common with most indie RPGs only exacerbates the problem. Very few ever really stand out, not just in relation to indie RPGs but in relation to indie games in general. So in the end, you are left with the general assumption that there just aren't any good indie RPGs (when in reality there are, they are just buried and take some digging to find).

[JackieJay]

Hmm, I guess I seem to have misunderstood what you meant by "it's going bankrupt or trying something new."  I had assumed you meant 'people won't be able to sell their game if they don't try something new,' but perhaps you meant the opposite?

Re seeing anything new in indie rpgs: I think barkley shut up and jam gaiden was pretty original work, though it was freeware so sales weren't an issue for them.

Summing up, what I meant was that originality sells less than the old-tried-and done-to-death-formulas, so it could be an explanation why indie rpgs aren't known for their originality and uniqueness, so yeah I meant the opposite. 

[Chromeleon]

JackieJay:  I think you're the one who needs to elaborate on what exactly you're talking about.  Quit dancing around with the word "most", name some names, and give us some specific examples of the thoroughly unoriginal indie RPGs that you've played, and what they've copied from where.

I don't doubt that there's no shortage of derivative RPGs that desperately want to be Final Fantasy, but these broad sweeping statements are just getting ridiculous, and aren't really doing very much to benefit the discussion as a whole.

[Zaphos]

Summing up, what I meant was that originality sells less than the old-tried-and done-to-death-formulas, so it could be an explanation why indie rpgs aren't known for their originality and uniqueness, so yeah I meant the opposite. 

Oops!  Sorry about getting you wrong there.

About originality, I think the less cynical way to think of it is just that more original work is higher risk, but potentially higher reward -- no guaranteed audience, but if you're the first to discover a new audience then you can do pretty well from it.

[starsrift]

When I said good points I wasn't talking about "indie rpgs telling unique stories".
Every indie rpg I played told banal stories, mostly reminiscent of the SNES classic such as secrets of mana, final fantasy and so on. On the other hand, recent AAA games such as Mass Effect, some of the last Final Fantasy titles, Fallout 3, Jade Empire and SW:KOTOR 1 and 2 are set in worlds and tell stories that I've never seen any indie RPG game approach both in uniqueness and overall quality.

Summing up, what I meant was that originality sells less than the old-tried-and done-to-death-formulas, so it could be an explanation why indie rpgs aren't known for their originality and uniqueness, so yeah I meant the opposite. 

I don't even know. What the hell are you even saying? Are you reversing yourself because you're afraid of admitting you're wrong, or what is this?

Anyway, Western RPG's have been a shrinking market since the late 90's when Diablo cleared the field and split the genre. It's now a very small market with a few giants like Bethesda, Bioware, and JoWood. There's no community because it's just easier for the fans to follow those developers directly - and it's hard to market to the fans, exactly because there is no community, though like Stern pointed out, there's lots of room! I think that's the real problem with trying to sell indie RPGs - trying to find the audience - and kudos to indierpg.com, hopefully that'll go a long way towards fixing that.

[JackieJay]

Chromeleon: Well the first games that come to mind are Aveyond 1 and 2,Ahriman's Prophecy, the avernum games (and pretty much every other spiderweb title), the Eschalon games(though these games are truly well made) and Fast Crawl.

These are 10 of the most well known indie rpgs there are out there, none of them rip off older games completely of course, but they are good examples of old school yet unoriginal games. In addition to these there are the countless other rpg maker made games that while not very well known are still a huge part of the whole indie rpgs market.

If I were to say what and where they copied we'd be here all day, but just take a look at their stories, settings, combat systems, graphics, gameplay, and so on and you'll notice they are very similar and in some cases identical to many different pre 2000 RPGs .

That doesn't mean they are bad games, I loved every bit of Eschalon 1 and all the avernum games I played are good rpgs.

Zaphos: Couldn't agree more.

starsrift: hum..reversing myself ? Have you been following the discussion at least ? The first part of the discussion was about how stories in indie rpgs are unique or not, now we're discussing about how originality doesn't sell. I disagree with the unique stories point but agree that originality doesn't sell, which is unfortunate but true. Better start watching the movie since the beginning or it you won't make sense, right ?

[Christian Knudsen]

But isn't that a kind of chicken-and-the-egg thing? Can't it be argued that those games you mention as well-known games have become well-known because "originality sells less than the old-tried-and done-to-death-formulas"? So it's not a matter of indie RPGs having less originality, it's just a matter of those games selling more and therefor becoming better known.

[JackieJay]

I think those games became well known simply because they are good, even if originality isn't one their qualities. Perhaps the games with more originality aren't quite as well known because they are lacking in the other areas. There are original indie RPGs, that's not even up for debate, the problem is they are a minority in comparison with the rest.

For example, I remember a game a bit like harvest moon but where instead of harvesting tomatoes and potatoes you'd harvest marijuana and cocaine. It was an original take on an existing concept but the execution was pretty poor sadly and even though it could spark some controversy and get some attention because of it, it never became known enough to raise much of a discussion, simply because the game sucked.

[Christian Knudsen]

There are original indie RPGs, that's not even up for debate, the problem is they are a minority in comparison with the rest.

That's pretty much a given in any form of creative output, though, be it games, books, films, music, etc. 90% of anything is shit. Is the issue then that you feel Stern is generalizing and saying that all indie RPGs are unique (in the meaning of "original")? Perhaps a bit. But he clearly stated it was an "opinion piece", and opinions are very often subjective and shouldn't to be taken as statements of fact.

[Craig Stern]

There are original indie RPGs, that's not even up for debate, the problem is they are a minority in comparison with the rest.

The same can be said for AAA RPG stories: most just copy each other ad infinitum. The point I made in my piece is that if you want a steady supply of well-written game narratives, you can't just limit yourself to AAA titles. That holds true even in the face of Sturgeon's law.

[JackieJay]

He only spoke specifically about the story, which is still wrong in my opinion, and I didn't assume he was talking about every rpg, but more like about the majority, or at least he seemed to imply indie rpgs are known for their "unique stories" which is definitively not true, not at least for someone who has been playing rpgs for so long like me.

I understand that's his opinion, all I did was saying I didn't agree with most of his article and the fact that it seemed like a blatant way to advertise his game made me go a bit harder on him, which was unnecessary and for that I apologize.

Craig Stern: Well yes, but then again it's obvious, people have the right to chose to play whatever they want but if they're tired of the stories they find in AAA rpgs they won't find anything that different or truly superior in indie games. But well that's just my opinion.

[Craig Stern]

Craig Stern: Well yes, but then again it's obvious, people have the right to chose to play whatever they want but if they're tired of the stories they find in AAA rpgs they won't find anything that different or truly superior in indie games. But well that's just my opinion.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said. I don't know how to make my argument any clearer for you. I'm sorry.