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[PlayMeTape]

It seems silly to post 15 pages after it was first mentioned, but fuck yes to the movie Irreversible (first post after the game info).  That movie is everything I wish this game had been.  It's good enough to bring back up this deep into the thread.

Actually, it's been mentioned several times throughout the thread .

[BlueSlime]

This game looks great but it's so pixelated on my machine that the characters and text look like indecipherable blobs. I've got directx 9 but maybe my onboard video doesn't have pixelshader 2.0? I read earlier in the thread somebody mentioning their screen was blurry. Would a windowed version fix any of this?

Even if I can't run it properly, I can tell this entry stands out among the crowd. You've got my vote.

[Farmergnome]

Ill make a windowed build tonight for you.

[Rumrusher]

the abuse in this game is far less than the damsel abuse one could do in spelunky
Emily gets smack twice and raped... and or raped again. Where the damsel gets trap in a dark cavern where the only men around are a Indiana Jones rip off who thinks carries you deeper into the cavern is rescue,( Some times the guy get sick ideas of using you for 'disarming' traps and or sacrifice to please a female god.) and a old paranoid cave dweller\shop owner who thinks of you as his 'property' and sells you off to any one who could shell out high prices for poon. oh and the topless followers and vampires that seem to either die from being under you or knock out.edit: but then there is that shortcut guy who digs a path to the top but then by the time he finally gets paid enough your trap behind lava.

... if what I said had any means it's I need to learn how to add in a cave level in edmund(that huge hole seem a nice place for a warp) and I'm must be playing that game wrong if I'm trying to kill vampires with damsels.
oh and I just redownload to see if any changes where made and dang you fix the wall and the twilight room yet I couldn't even find the secret ending (I don't count getting back to the cab a secret.)


oh and you can drag Emily and the nam-mourner across if your close to the pants border keep hitting the action button and any walking direction you can slide the victim to your dick. other than that not a glitch at all and shouldn't be remove the game quickly lost it's fun this time around  really hope you add that level editor and a guide on how to edit this.

[Melly]

 

The tiger likes it for... other reasons.

[deathtotheweird]

snip

I love that Spelunky example. Now I can't look at that perverted shop keeper in the same way ever again 

And oh how I would love a map/scene editor! I doubt he would create one. If it was my game I would be afraid people would make something extremely awful, such as something poking fun at rape (i.e. lolrape mentality that you would probably find on 4chan) or glorifying it for a fetish or something along those lines..man I am such a pessimist.

[curby]

I'm a bit late into this but I just wanted to chime in my thoughts, as it's been a very interesting read making my way through this thread.

As countless others have said I loved the game's aesthetics, a very bleak but polished style, fantastic.
Gameplay wise I found myself a little frustrated by the nam section, which kinda put me off
trying to find all the endings.  But I acknowledge this is probably largely due to my preference for hassle free gameplay that lets me experience all the content with relatively little effort (what can I say, I'm a busy and lazy guy ).

I can't say that I have conciously taken anything substantial away from playing the game itself but this consequential thread has been quite enlightening and thought provoking, so for that I have to commend Farmergnome for his time and effort. 

I have to agree with some of the other posters that I would like to see a game that attempts to explore the more confusing/blurry lines of rape, where the player takes the role of the victim.  A husband/wife relationship where rape occurs, girls who dress provocatively and the mind sets of certain men towards them etc.  But nevertheless I commend your efforts on tackling the issue.

Also it's really really refreshing that games with this kind of subject matter can be made and discussed in a mature and reasoned manner, without descending into a reactionary farce (i.e. indiegamer), so  to all who contributed.

[deathtotheweird]

I really appreciate Edmund because you don't really know the motives. You know that he is a schizo, probably due to war trauma but you really don't know why he just walks along the road and does the acts and same goes for the Vietnam scene-he kind of just does it. Leaves it to the imagination and makes one wonder, instead of just plainly laying it out there. I love Braid for that very reason. But, that's just me 

[Melly]

Reading the rest of this thread a bit I should say that I feel Edmund is a very successful game. Sure, it can be argued whether this is an effective way to tackle the subject, but that the game spawned such a discussion over the matter is a success in the sense of it creating an influence on people.

[agj]

The game reminded me a bit of Jacob's Ladder. Was it one of your influences, Farmergnome?

Well, I don't have much to say, other than "this is a briliantly realized game".

[Lukas]

I hope it's okay that I'm honest... but since it doesn't really matter that much, I guess I could simply present what I think.


I loved the graphical style, the sound effects and the athmosphere overall. I guess how the theme was presented is interesting.

But seriously this is no game. I don't really want to start a discussion about "what's a game" blah. But seriously. There is no gameplay whatsoever and there are merely two(?) not really that interesting choises to take. (I hope I didn't miss too much.)
I couldn't really play/enjoy it as a platformer or action game because it simply has no real action gameplay. (like having to solve jumping puzzles, evading bullets, anything like that)
On the other hand: Playing it as an interactive adventure (like Indigo Prophecy is one... or the upcoming "heavy rain") didn't really work either since there just weren't that many that exciting choices.

That way it seemed just like an slightly interactive movie to me... well... maybe a step above "press the "play" button to start the video".

So... is the depiction of (even slightly interactive) rape as a mere provocation the works'  ""selling point""?

Perfect pop art I guess? Now that it won the compo it will certainly be featured on all  even major gaming sites I guess?


Or did I miss much of the games' content? Please tell me in that case.


BaronCid

[battlerager]

I dunno, I actually found the jumping in the Vietnam part to be very difficult. That part surely qualifies as jumping puzzles, and gameplay and challenge were very much present for me there. 

[Lukas]

Oh heck... looks like I missed something. :/ How do I get there?

[Melly]

Oh man, we're getting into THAT discussion again?

No BaronCid, there isn't really anything tradicionally gamey about Edmund. Yes, it's more a work of expression than entertainment. That is not against any rules of the compo (the definition of 'game' is becoming fuzier as well). Atmosphere is an important part of games that allows for things that aren't possible in other media.

Hopefully this is where that discussion ends.

[battlerager]

Oh heck... looks like I missed something. :/ How do I get there?

You can select one of two scenarios from the main menu by selecting one of the two characters.

[Lukas]

That is not against any rules of the compo

I didn't even bring up that it is.

Atmosphere is an important part of games that allows for things that aren't possible in other media.

I am pretty sure that none would deny that atmosphere is not at all a thing exclusive to games.

But sure, I guess I know what you mean. Maybe thats what you want to point out: Games allow for atmospheres that are not possible in other media. And that is true, I'm pretty sure of that. I guess we all are.

And here we come to the reason why I even posted my doubts in here: I didn't find anything in Edmund that would not have been possible in an animation. If there really is some content I missed (Vietnam?), please tell me. But without gameplay I just find it a it cheap to call Edmund a game. It would be a bit like painting a picture, then showing it for 10 minutes in a .mov-movie file and finally calling it a movie.

Having had more choices/more freedom or at the very least a gameplay challenge of some sort could've made it a game of some sort (with astounding audio-visual work) but when playing it I felt about as involved as I would've been if I had just watched it as an animation.
I just mean...  animators (have) paint(ed) hundrets and thousands of frames to lend their drawings the magic of moving pictures.
Programmers write hundrets and thousands line of code to lend drawings and animations the magic of interactivy.
Calling Edmund a game would just kind of be... I don't know. It's a great animation(with multiple endings) though.

Hopefully this is where that discussion ends.

Nice trick! In the future I'll use that anytime I want to make anyone that dares questioning my statements seem like a crazed ranter.
Okay... I guess that's how I already started out even questioning the winner of the compo.   :D

[Lukas]

The game reminded me a bit of Jacob's Ladder. Was it one of your influences, Farmergnome?

Well, I don't have much to say, other than "this is a briliantly realized game".

Thanks you pointed it out. It was interesting aswell... with the grass, the mines and the helicopter and stuff... but essentially it wasn't that different from the story in the city.

[Farmergnome]

Don't worry, I don't think its a game either in the traditional sense, its been asked alot and Ive just dodged most of the questions as its a "Experience".  I don't expect anyone to get fun gameplay out of this, but if they come out of it thinking a little more then that's all good by me, but as Melly pointed out, this has been discussed before, and It is starting to sound like a broken record.

And every time I ask this but I don't think Ive got a sufficient answer to it yet, what is wrong with games breaking the mold of it HAS to have fun mechanics?  Why can't we swap out mechanics with atmosphere?  Or emotion?  As a player, I'm kind of turned off how most games try so hard to please you with jump on their heads and collect those coins type mechanics, its kinda getting old to me.

I understand to most people, fun mechanics are the reason they play games, but I think there is room for more than that, and it would be pretty narrow minded to say otherwise.

[deathtotheweird]

I think anyone who questions what a game should be, should be kicked multiple times in the shins by someone wearing steel toed boots.

video game  –noun
 
1.  any of various games played using a microcomputer with a keyboard and often joysticks to manipulate changes or respond to the action or questions on the screen.

I agree with Farmergnome, there is no rule that video games have to be fun or have puzzles or machine guns or whatever you expected this to be. There are tons of other ways to explore the medium of video games and limiting yourself to puzzles and battling and leveling up and etc just gets stale. I assumed most people at TigSource were open-minded enough to accept that notion, but I must have assumed wrong.

[Lukas]

I myself stated: I don't want to start a discussion about what games are. I don't know who is being accused of doing that.

But absolutely denying to question what a game should be isn't that clever really if you think about it: You wouldn't call Microsoft's Control Panel a game would you? Definitons like that don't say much, sure but there still has to be some kind of differentiation.
Saying: "You *could* enjoy (enjoyment is not necessarily ==fun, see next paragraph) yourself with this program" doesn't make it a game in my opinion. It should more be like: "this program works in a way that it is something like a catalyst for the users enjoyment (and emotion)". This means: Not every user WILL enjoy using the program but for most users the program will make it possible to reach a state of particular enjoyment.
 
Now to what I mean with enjoyment:
Enjoyment does not equal fun for me and I suppose it doesn't for most of us. Plain *fun* can be enjoyment (hopping on heads in Mario) but enjoyment is a more general term, actually. I, for example, felt some (what I'd call) enjoyment in Edmund when I heard the sound effects of the rain and saw the scene, soaked up the mood. I felt some enjoyment when seeing how the grass moved and reacted in the vietnam scene. Feeling sorry or upset can be a certain form of enjoyment too that not only games can transport, but also music or literature etc. but games have this one special trick: involvement. Involvement can make those feelings even more intense. And hence the enjoyment that games *can* offer sometimes is comparably or even deeper, more... intense... concentrated than in other known media.

(by the way: I aswell think that games should not only be fun. In fact, sometimes fun in games is simply inappropriate. And I love the idea of developing something like 'art games'. I wasn't missing Koopa-Hopping, Zombie-Killing and racedriving in Edmund! Not at all.  :D )


Synthesis of all the stuff I wrote up there in this post:
Edmund had (or rather suggested) those essential points of involvement in it: I remember the regret and sick sensation when hitting/raping the women, the looking out for mines in the grass, the chasing of the rapist, wanting to punish him. (or rather: one self)
But here comes what made me question the work: Edmund only suggested them. If you'd translate the game's involving element into literature you'd end up with something like:
"A man who was previously in the vietnam war and raped the wife of a killed soldier there took the Taxi to stalk a woman. Then he beat her. Then he made her have sexual intercourse with him. Then the taxi driver shot him." (one possible story)
The audiovisuals could be translated into how graphicly and exact the intercourse and scenery are described in the piece of literature but even then you wouldn't really have a good piece of literature. The factor of deeper involvement would be missing. It would merely be interesting for someone who wants the description of rape and forced sexual intercourse. A good David Lynch (the game kind of reminded me) script doesn't work solely based on its main plot and the description of what happens. It always has some twists that really make it shine in the end... I was missing those twists in the things that happened (and were offered) in Edmund.

What this all means for the game:
In my opinion there are two ways to kind of "fix" this. For gods sake, I don't say that this game in particular has to be "fixed"/changed and I know that it probably wont (would be strange if it was) but maybe it's simply interesting for you people if I stated what came to my mind:

Way A (which is a more classical approach. I wouldn't really recommend it): Embed the happenings in "gameplay".
This is what most games have done to this point. With gameplay I do actually mean: challenging the players skill.
... platformer-elements, shooting and evading enemies, chasing cars... that kind of stuff. As I already said and as most of you already know this can be an awkward and not always appropriate approach but remember games like... Super Metroid. Even though some scenes (including the ending) have a massive emotional impact on the player and there is a very strong atmosphere all around the thing that players actually do 90% of the time is chasing through mazes, shooting and evading enemies and jumping on platforms. Other examples are Half-Life or... Portal! Imagine how portal might have felt without all the... well... plain puzzle solving and platforming. Would the ending have had any comparable effect on you? And remember: Even though it is the emotion and feeling of involvement that stays in our heads and makes us love the game so much... the dial...monologue actually served the plain puzzle gameplay - not the other way around!
For Edmund a solution of that type could've been (for example): After the rape you'd have to pull her into your appartment (which can only be reached through some a bit more complex platforming) and on the way you have to prevent being caught by guards. There are many ways to go and the appartment you end up in in the end is the actual appartment where the last scene of the storyline takes place. You leave some traces on the ground. (blood e.g.) In the second scene you have to play the taxi-driver and walk through the same complex maze. Policemen/homeless people will ask you if you saw that incident (heard that screaming) and the gameplay will be to remember/recognize the way you took on the first time through. There could also be a time limit of some sorts. If you don't reach the appartment there is some kind of alternative epilogue. I guess that could intensify things...


Way B : Add details, twists and interactivity to what (can) happen(s).
A more modern and maybe more fitting approach games like Indigo Prophecy upcoming Heavy Rain use:
There are details and additional plot-lines that can flesh out the characters injust some  very brief moments.
Something that makes those games interesting in particular is not only that the player can kind of dictate the basic plot... it's first and foremost the showing of consequences from different standpoints! That's nothing that exclusive to games (see... Ulysses for example) but even the slightest bit of interactivity can open up the whole experience and make it richer.
How this might've been applied on Edmund: What about: The basic scene would just have been the one with the Taxi, the Driver, the Rapist, the Bus Stop, the Woman, the Gun, the Appartment. And once the player took his choices and "constructed" a basic plot the game could present a number of slides (or maybe even animations) of how different parts of the world could've reacted to what happened: e.g.: the victim's mother (being a widow, having lost her only child, becoming a lonely, old woman etc.), the newspapers (bringing an article about what happened with some true facts, some missing things, some overexaggerated stuff etc.; an ad fitting to what happened? (e.g. for COCOP in case the woman wasn't killed but raped, pepper spray in case the woman died))
This would of course require a lot of additional work... but no additional AI or platforming-mechanics/level design.
Oh btw... There was another game that used a similar element... "Fallout" presented the player a range of consequences based on his in-game decisions after having beaten the game.... many people (including me) list this as one of the most interesting features of the (fantastic) game...


Anyways... just some ideas... it also helped me form my opinion about Edmund:

In my opinion, Edmund is a great game that is unfinished but masterly polished in its (current) state.


BaronCid