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[skullbox]

Hi!

I posted this topic on another site but wanted to hear what you think of this solution and if you have any ideas to improve it.

I'm making a rpg game with inspiration from Final Fantasy and Pokémon.
So right now the idea is to use materia-stones like in ff but since my game is gonna contain hundreds of enemy-creatures that all can become a playable character, they need fixed abilities to start with as well like in pokémon.

So different creatures have different abilities and stats, and they can all equip items that change these stats. But I want the player to be able to modify the creatures with new abilities as well.

Here is a video showing what I've done so far:

VIDEO 1:


VIDEO 2:



Here is a simple illustration of equipping these materias (I call them orbs in my game)



Thanks for you help!

[jeffrobot]

Create an intricate ability editor that lets the player invent their own abilities for the monsters. That would probably be more interesting than the system you're using.

That's a joke response, because it's probably too complex. I'm not particularly excited by your system because I'm not a big fan of stats and discreet abilities and stuff, so if it were me I would redesign the whole thing, which is what my post is getting at. Maybe if you posted a more specific question I and others could help.

[jeffrobot]

However, that's a pretty impressive UI/combat system you've got going. Are you using RPG Maker?

[dustin]

So I'm not familiar with materia stones in ff but for me what would make this fun is the clear effect of stones.  Just changing stats isn't really that fun to me so like you say I would make sure the stones give you abilities. 

If it was me I would want to separate out stone abilities vs. just normal abilities so I would probably make the stone abilities all passive abilities and the creatures abilities would be the ones that you have to choose between.

For instance you have a really strong glass cannon type guy but he's slow so you equip him with the lightning stone.  It doesn't give a new attack but it gives him first strike so he can attack before faster guys without first strike.  That to me would be more interesting then the lightning stone just upping his speed stat even if they have the same effect in most situations.

[Falmil]

I would think your solution to be dependent on how many slots a unit would be likely to have as well as how many original abilities they come with/can get.

[jeffrobot]

  Just changing stats isn't really that fun to me so like you say I would make sure the stones give you abilities. 


For instance you have a really strong glass cannon type guy but he's slow so you equip him with the lightning stone.  It doesn't give a new attack but it gives him first strike so he can attack before faster guys without first strike.  That to me would be more interesting then the lightning stone just upping his speed stat even if they have the same effect in most situations.

This is pretty smart. I would definitely do this, Skullbox.

[skullbox]

Hi again! Thanks for the replies!

However, that's a pretty impressive UI/combat system you've got going. Are you using RPG Maker?

I'm programming this game in Java with the LWJGL/Slick-libraries.

Just changing stats isn't really that fun to me so like you say I would make sure the stones give you abilities. 

If it was me I would want to separate out stone abilities vs. just normal abilities so I would probably make the stone abilities all passive abilities and the creatures abilities would be the ones that you have to choose between.

For instance you have a really strong glass cannon type guy but he's slow so you equip him with the lightning stone.  It doesn't give a new attack but it gives him first strike so he can attack before faster guys without first strike.  That to me would be more interesting then the lightning stone just upping his speed stat even if they have the same effect in most situations.

That is really an interesting and fun solution!

Example:
I have an ice blob which has an attack to begin with called "freeze". This attack can be leveled up to "mega freeze" after x amount of ability points earned. If I equip it with a lightning orb, it gets the attribute "first strike".

If orbs (materias) gives these abilities such as "first strike" but no extra attacks such as "freeze" or "fire ball" for example, doesn't the game loose a bit of the creature customization, or should a lightning orb add an attack + ability + stats ?

Does anyone by the way know how I should program this kind of ability system?
I have started with a database where each ability has a name, stats modifiers, damage given, multi/single or self-target, manacost etc. But if I have a lightning ability that gives "first strike" how do I program that? Should it just increase the speed stat or should I have an endless set of if-clauses when you attack checking all the abilities and doing something special for each one of them? (seems kind of clumsy) Perhaps this is too code-oriented, but I don't want a code-solution just an idea of how to design the information.

Thanks again for the help!

[dustin]

If orbs (materias) gives these abilities such as "first strike" but no extra attacks such as "freeze" or "fire ball" for example, doesn't the game loose a bit of the creature customization, or should a lightning orb add an attack + ability + stats ?

I like the abilities as it makes it so both the type of creature (for the attacks) and the stones (for the abilities) important.  Otherwise I feel like it migt not matter as much what creature you have just what stones you put on it.  I don't know as much about the game as you though so the creatures might be super different anyways and it'd be fine to add attacks to the stones.

Does anyone by the way know how I should program this kind of ability system?

What I would do is have each ability be a function.  The abilities can probably only fire at a couple of points in time, say before the attack (like quick strike), before opponents turn (something like intimidate so the other creature misses their first turn), or after the attack (like regeneration so you heal health at the end of each round).

In your database put the name and the timing of the ability.  Then in code check the timing of abilities the creature has at any point an ability might fire.  If they have any abilities with that timing then call the function by the name given in the database.  That's how I would do it at least.

[skullbox]

I like the abilities as it makes it so both the type of creature (for the attacks) and the stones (for the abilities) important.  Otherwise I feel like it migt not matter as much what creature you have just what stones you put on it.  I don't know as much about the game as you though so the creatures might be super different anyways and it'd be fine to add attacks to the stones.

The rules in my game are not set at all, I am just done with the basic game engine and some graphics, so I can change the ability system any way I want. I agree with you that perhaps the most interesting way so far is to have creatures have their fixed set of unique attack skills and then you can modify them by adding abilities such as "haste", "first strike", "poison", "scare", "fire shield" etc. in other words passive abilities in form of orbs or materia. On top of that all creatures have different stats to begin with, and the ability orbs adds stat modifiers as well. So then there is room for quite a lot of customization, but players will find it interesting when meeting another player with different creatures and new attacks.

What I would do is have each ability be a function.  The abilities can probably only fire at a couple of points in time, say before the attack (like quick strike), before opponents turn (something like intimidate so the other creature misses their first turn), or after the attack (like regeneration so you heal health at the end of each round).

In your database put the name and the timing of the ability.  Then in code check the timing of abilities the creature has at any point an ability might fire.  If they have any abilities with that timing then call the function by the name given in the database.  That's how I would do it at least.

That is also a very nice idea! Thanks for the help!

I felt stuck on abilities for long, so I just kept programming on other stuff in the game, but now I have run out of tasks to do for an alpha release, so what I have left to do is abilities, add creatures and items and find a nice balance to all of it.

I will post a link to it when I'm done so you can test it out!

Thanks!

[dustin]

yay glad I could help   it sounds like a cool game

[baconman]

Might I suggest a PokeMon-style system where all orbs are associated with attacks, you can have up to four of them, and optionally link their properties together? Your overall level and type-specific level determines the specific abilities that a particular orb can teach you, and there are 3 of each element that basically amount to (current level, current level + 1, current level + 2).

Equipping a "second" Fire Stone will result in the index adding one extra level-range and thus learning you the newer move. The tradeoff is the "super effectiveness" system - as the effect is multiplied for every stone of that type. So while water may do +20% damage with one Fire Orb equipped, it'll do +40-50% with two, and about +90-100% with three.

Experience is gained by using moves or being hit by moves. So your "first attack" will gain both general experience (which applies to everything in general) and electrical-specific experience, which in turn will be added together when you equip a Lightning Orb to determine what type of special attack it gives you. And like in PokeMon, you also have to discard a previously learned move if you're up to four.

Now, the real strategic depth of the game will naturally derive of the comboing system. Under some particular circumstances (being at a certain location, using a certain item, whatever fits your fancy), you can create one-two combos of these moves so that one command (or turn?) will execute the two in sequence together.

Then comes the other interesting possibility: What if you equip ALL FOUR of the same type? Then depending on your level, you'll learn one of a few super attacks of that type (we're talking bullet hell/laser storm shit here), but in exchange, one to three hits of a weakness type will instakill you, and your overall defense may drop as well.

I would also suggest either making the stat-modifying equipment seperate from the orbs, or use the orbs to make stat-modifying attacks. Not boring crap like "Growl," I mean like basic attacks that boost stats upon successful execution.

[skullbox]

Might I suggest a PokeMon-style system where all orbs are associated with attacks, you can have up to four of them, and optionally link their properties together? Your overall level and type-specific level determines the specific abilities that a particular orb can teach you, and there are 3 of each element that basically amount to (current level, current level + 1, current level + 2).

Equipping a "second" Fire Stone will result in the index adding one extra level-range and thus learning you the newer move. The tradeoff is the "super effectiveness" system - as the effect is multiplied for every stone of that type. So while water may do +20% damage with one Fire Orb equipped, it'll do +40-50% with two, and about +90-100% with three.

Experience is gained by using moves or being hit by moves. So your "first attack" will gain both general experience (which applies to everything in general) and electrical-specific experience, which in turn will be added together when you equip a Lightning Orb to determine what type of special attack it gives you. And like in PokeMon, you also have to discard a previously learned move if you're up to four.

Now, the real strategic depth of the game will naturally derive of the comboing system. Under some particular circumstances (being at a certain location, using a certain item, whatever fits your fancy), you can create one-two combos of these moves so that one command (or turn?) will execute the two in sequence together.

Then comes the other interesting possibility: What if you equip ALL FOUR of the same type? Then depending on your level, you'll learn one of a few super attacks of that type (we're talking bullet hell/laser storm shit here), but in exchange, one to three hits of a weakness type will instakill you, and your overall defense may drop as well.

I would also suggest either making the stat-modifying equipment seperate from the orbs, or use the orbs to make stat-modifying attacks. Not boring crap like "Growl," I mean like basic attacks that boost stats upon successful execution.

Hehe fun that you mention pokémon, just decided over some beers with a friend to do three different appearances for each creature depending on its level. So it starts to feel a whole lot like a pokémon-game =)

I love combo-effects, rewarding the user to experiment different combination of abilities and creatures. My vision for this game is that when you walk around with your crew, composed of different creatures you've defeated or helped along the way you can encounter other players with completely different monsters. This way you get a feeling of how huge the world is and how much there is to discover. Imagine walking along some fields in a low-level area with your pirate-crew of blobs, skeletons and perhaps knights or even ninjas and suddenly out of the woods another player crew steps in with a demon, giant and hydra. I think that would be epic.

But at the same time all creatures can level up, so even though you only have a blob, it can be of a higher level than the hydra, and since a blob is more specialized in magic than the hydra it can still be a challenging battle.

So baconman (nice name), do you mean that the creatures don't have any attacks on their own, but instead they have an orb with an attack linked to it? And then you can add other orbs to it and gain attacks or strengthen a specific attack or unlocking a combo or a super-attack?

[baconman]

Basically yes. Although I can understand if you want to put an intrinsic ability unique to each creature as well. If I were you, I'd combine a basic fallback attack ability with the fun character-specific abilites that you see in games like Final Fantasy VI.

Come to think of it, that could be your fourth option/resort, right there.

Also, simplify status ailment and HP recovery to a single Potion-like object. It's a lazy trick, but it'll be quite a popular one, especially if you place good value/scarcity to it.