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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignCompetitive vs. "just for fun"
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J-Snake
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« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2010, 05:56:54 PM »

You may be less or more right if you are advertising one single button-press. But it isn't true when the game is designed to reward a turbo-sequence of inputs. Your muscles come to play.
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« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2010, 06:15:51 PM »

Games require physical skills.  They all do, and always have.  Even video games, all the way back to Pong and Space War.  That they require some physical dexterity to play is nothing surprising or new or in any way unique to StarCraft or StarCraft 2.

I'll be interested in Core's simplified RTS interface ideas when he releases the game that uses them.  Until then, I have no way to judge their validity. So get to it, Core!  I'm looking forward to actually being able to try them out!  XD
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2010, 06:28:41 PM »

what game is designed to require a turbo sequence of inputs? the only game i can think of that requires that are the special moves in fighting games, but even those are more about the brain than the muscles. bodybuilders don't have much (if any) of an advantage over weak nerds when it comes to playing street fighter 2.
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« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2010, 06:41:51 PM »

All games require physical input, of course. But the question is how much and how much of that can be avoided by control-design. BodyBuilders are not trained on speed-muscles. You need speed-muscles. Strafing in Unreal Tournament is already a turbo-sequence. It rewards speed-muscles significantly.
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« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2010, 06:50:55 PM »

All games require physical input, of course. But the question is how much and how much of that can be avoided by control-design.

I don't think that I agree that reducing the amount of physical input is necessarily going to be an improvement for a game.

I mean, if you removed all of the input options which presented no meaningful choice in Rock Band, then it'd just be iTunes, right?  To me, this seems like a pretty simple proof that at least in some situations, a game can be improved by adding physical input, even if that physical input doesn't involve any decision-making.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2010, 07:02:24 PM »

Depends what you make a game. You can also make sports your game. Also Kinect is fully dependend on body movement, best Kinect game will be something like dance-teacher, that would outsell everything. But Kinect doesn't fit a shooter like unreal tournament because the amount of body-expression is simply an overhead and cannot be used for gameplay anyway. In unreal tournament you could make strafing by single button click (double-click is already an overhead), only it would require more buttons. Choose your philosophy but the reason I don't play street-fighter is because perfecting the input moves on an arcade-stick at best is just way too stupid for me. It is nothing but additional overhead that doesn't express anything in the game. To balancing out direct input you could design ways around it simply by giving a powerfull move a corresponding time to charge before it is pulled off.
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« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2010, 07:10:41 PM »


All games require physical input, of course. But the question is how much and how much of that can be avoided by control-design.

I don't think that I agree that reducing the amount of physical input is necessarily going to be an improvement for a game.

I mean, if you removed all of the input options which presented no meaningful choice in Rock Band, then it'd just be iTunes, right?  To me, this seems like a pretty simple proof that at least in some situations, a game can be improved by adding physical input, even if that physical input doesn't involve any decision-making.
Not really. Would you like to have to press a button at a timed rate while playing starcraft, and be punished in-game if you didn't? The macro mechanics of each race boil down to the same thing, with a minimal amount of decision making tossed in. A better way to design it would have been to remove the timed button pressing and simply give you the interesting decision.
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« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2010, 07:30:24 PM »

I'd like to chip in that the reason I hate RTS games is because the units are so stupid. The game that gets the most right that I've played is the original Rise of Nations. The units are smart generally enough to not get killed pointlessly (they react to attack somewhat intelligently) and they're stupid enough to do what you tell them.

For me, the balance is having priorities right. Following my orders shouldn't be a unit's top priority; that's unrealistic and idiotic. No, my orders should be second and preservation of self should be first. (Then after orders, defending structures and other units should be third.)

There are a lot of RTS that run when badly injured. But they didn't catch on for some reason.

Personally, I don't think of a RTS as a strategy game. They're games where you memorize build orders and 'tactics'. People play them as twitch sports, just like people would play basketball or ping pong. They're pretty much games where winning and losing is the whole point.

If I wanted a strategy game, turn based strategy works a lot better. Something with a much slower pace like Neptune's Pride or Supremacy strikes a great balance between TBS and RTS at the downside of being something you check all day.

I'd like to clarify my stand.

AI has come a long way since RTS games like the old CnCs, Dune, the original Starcraft, etc.

So go and play the original Command and Conquer then play a modern RTS. What's different? Nothing! Maybe it's prettier, maybe it's better balanced, but the core is exactly the same. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even though we have modern 2D platformers with smooth and responsive controls (Super Meat Boy is the best example I can think of at the moment) racing games with more realistic and responsive cars and opponent AI, and numerous improvements in other genres, it's still fun to go back to a genre's roots and enjoy the older styles. But the RTS genre has remained largely the same - unchanged and, for the most part, unimproved.

I think the biggest problem is that RTS games seem to be treated too much like a TBS, where you can sensibly have that level of micromanagement of units because you get enough time to both strategize and to issue orders. The two types of games are drastically different, so why does the AI act almost exactly the same between them?

There are people who want to play high-speed twitch-based RTS games. I get that. But I don't, and I think the majority of gamers share my opinion.

So I've stated what I think is the problem. Pick that apart as much as you like, but I've given you what is in my mind the most significant flaw - the RTS has failed to evolve. But what could I possibly propose as a solution? I'm no game designer, but I'm wiser on the subject of AI than most others and have had some experience writing various forms of it. (Neural nets, chatbots, cellular automata, and a few game AIs)

First, I'm going to analyze what I do enjoy in playing an RTS.

 - The building-up aspect. It's very gratifying to make an impenetrable fortress and watch the enemy attempt to get in with no success. Conversely, breaking into an opponent's well-established defenses is also satisfying.
 - In a TBS, strategies are like that found in Chess. They have to be executed perfectly with little room for error. As soon as the enemy becomes aware of your presence, you must be very careful to ensure your force is superior. Victory in a skirmish is almost always determined by a simple list of advantages and disadvantages plus some dice rolls. In an RTS, strategies are more comparable to those found in sports like football and soccer. Though cooperation of the force is still a key factor, the performance of each individual unit (or on larger-scale battles, sizable forces) becomes more substantial than that of a TBS.
 - Resource management is a vital component in RTS games. It's perhaps the most strategic element; availability of resources can determine which faction has the upper hand, and creates the opportunity to execute sieges against the enemy by picking off their resource collection hotspots.

What I don't like:

 - Micromanaging orders for my units. I don't want to have to specify to each small group precisely which unit they should be attacking. With the rock-paper-scissors formula found in most RTS games, they ought to be intelligent enough to choose their targets on their own. When I summon an army of infantry combined with a smaller cavalry force, I expect the infantry to go fight the artillery (assuming that's who they're advantageous against) and the cavalry to fight the enemy footsoldiers (again assuming that's how it works), but in every RTS I've played, attack priorities never belong to anything more complex than the closest and most available unit.
 - The inability to have my production facilities automated. Civilization and only a few RTS games allow you to set a governor to a city or something similar that controls the less individually significant characteristics of an establishment. Again, this is unnecessary micromanagement in my opinion.
 - Units have no individual intelligence. They can pathfind. That's it. No self-preservation, no intelligent defending of vital objectives, etc. They're just stupid and can't do a single thing on their own.
 - Units have no swarm intelligence. They are totally incapable of acting as a group.


So now, the specific improvements I want to see in RTS games.

Units are inevitably going to receive orders you know are going to result in their death. They're disposable, and I'm not saying they should go out of the way to stay alive. But when my army is being slaughtered by an ambush on its way to a key point, I don't want it to go down because it didn't bother to retaliate. If my units can't outrun the enemy, I fully expect them to at least try to stand against them. But what if their objective is so absurdly important that you don't want that? AI can be smart. Your units should automatically recognize that they're being moved to someplace where their timely arrival is of the essence. This shouldn't even be difficult - simply check for the movement order's proximity to a vital structure under attack, etc.

When my soldiers are idle, I don't want them to run all over the place, but when they're being fired upon, I don't want suicide, either. Unit AI should include basic evasive and defensive maneuvers without me having to notice the threat and make twenty orders to get everything working correctly.

Groups of units should be capable of functioning as a unified force without me having to simultaneously micromanage upwards of fifty units in the average army. When I order them to attack an enemy fortification, I don't want them to get themselves surrounded and slaughtered, I want them to understand the concept of infiltration - disposable units, not fast units, on the front line, powerful units on the flanks, etc. Trying to do this manually is hell.


I don't have the answers, I'm sure my vision isn't a perfect system, but something needs to change regarding the AI in RTS games.
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« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2010, 09:15:54 PM »

I mean, if you removed all of the input options which presented no meaningful choice in Rock Band, then it'd just be iTunes, right?  To me, this seems like a pretty simple proof that at least in some situations, a game can be improved by adding physical input, even if that physical input doesn't involve any decision-making.
Not really. Would you like to have to press a button at a timed rate while playing starcraft, and be punished in-game if you didn't?

You totally ignored my whole comment.  I can't figure out why you even replied to it.  You're not even talking about the same game as me.  (Did you click on the wrong 'quote' button, maybe?)

But please feel free to dispute my facts, or point out how my comment was in some way incorrect.  I'm interested in alternate points of view, as long as they're being reasonable and not just stating personal opinions as though they were objective facts.
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RCIX
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« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2010, 02:23:04 AM »

You totally ignored my whole comment.  I can't figure out why you even replied to it.  You're not even talking about the same game as me.  (Did you click on the wrong 'quote' button, maybe?)

But please feel free to dispute my facts, or point out how my comment was in some way incorrect.  I'm interested in alternate points of view, as long as they're being reasonable and not just stating personal opinions as though they were objective facts.
I was replying to this bit:
To me, this seems like a pretty simple proof that at least in some situations, a game can be improved by adding physical input, even if that physical input doesn't involve any decision-making.
and since i figured we were generally on the subject of strategy games....
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Core Xii
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« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2010, 06:11:52 AM »

Also I don't "plan" anything for humanity because I'm not narcissistic enough to think that my actions have any significant influence on humanity at large.

How is that narcissistic? I didn't say I was going to invent the brain interface or build spacecraft, only that someone else will, eventually. It's either that or we sit here on this little planet until another giant asteroid wipes us out or the Sun dies. I design games - I certainly hope I can be of significant value to humanity through that, but it's not me who's gonna get us off this rock.

You brought up good points on the escapism thing; There's two kinds of games. Take, like, Mass Effect, obviously there's nothing competitive about it, it's an experience, like an interactive movie. And then take something like Counter-Strike, obviously I don't play it for the plot :D

and of course the idea that we'll ever not need our bodies is somewhat irrelevant: it won't happen until a bit after we're all dead, so in this world, the skills that matter are what is important to us now, not the skills that will matter in 2050 or 2100. imagine a guy in ww2 saying 'where is all your military might going to go, germany, after war is abolished!' -- it's just irrelevant to the current situation.

You assume we live to be 80-90. But practical immortality is not that far off either. We don't need to prevent dying overnight, just increase our lifespan at a greater rate than expend it. We can already regenerate most organs, I have no doubt that in my lifetime the technology to extend my lifetime becomes available before I run out of it.

I'll be interested in Core's simplified RTS interface ideas when he releases the game that uses them.  Until then, I have no way to judge their validity. So get to it, Core!  I'm looking forward to actually being able to try them out!  XD

I'm working on it, and have for a long time. It's my flagship product, the very first game concept I created as a kid and have been refining ever since. I'm a one man team, at least for the time being, so don't get too excited about any release date Tongue

There are people who want to play high-speed twitch-based RTS games. I get that. But I don't, and I think the majority of gamers share my opinion.

I think it's dangerous to assume majorities... but yes, I'm one of them. Let me be clear - I also like twitch games; I play Counter-Strike for crying out loud. But I also like strategy, and in the RTS genre there aren't really any games that emphasize it to the degree I'm wanting for.

Actually, that applies to FPS as well. I stopped playing CS because Team Fortress 2 came along - Less twitch, more tactics and positioning. Only... Then it became all about hats and pay-to-win unlockables and I lost interest. Went back to CS.

Anyway I agree with everything you said - Don't know if you read my previous posts in this thread but I've been proposing designs to address these very issues.



In other news, I went and bought StarCraft 2 anyway. Can't bash a game without actually playing it for real.
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« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2010, 07:30:09 AM »

Also I don't "plan" anything for humanity because I'm not narcissistic enough to think that my actions have any significant influence on humanity at large.

How is that narcissistic? I didn't say I was going to invent the brain interface or build spacecraft, only that someone else will, eventually. It's either that or we sit here on this little planet until another giant asteroid wipes us out or the Sun dies. I design games - I certainly hope I can be of significant value to humanity through that, but it's not me who's gonna get us off this rock.

You brought up good points on the escapism thing; There's two kinds of games. Take, like, Mass Effect, obviously there's nothing competitive about it, it's an experience, like an interactive movie. And then take something like Counter-Strike, obviously I don't play it for the plot :D
Yeah, sorry about the narcissism thing. It came off more douchey than I intended it to.  Wink

Anyway, yeah, I'm more of an escapist and "experience gamer" than a competitive gamer, which is also why I don't play online a lot. Doesn't necessarily mean I play games for story though, for me things like challenge, using the rules to your advantage etc. are part of the "experience". It's all about escaping to a fictional world and learning your way around in that, acquiring skills to face fictional challenges. Any real world skills I might learn from that are a nice bonus, but not really needed.  I guess this is also why I hate modern "handholding" mechanics and forced tutorials so much: They keep me from getting immersed and experiencing the game's world in my own way.

Just a tangent.
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RCIX
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« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2010, 12:31:13 PM »

In other news, I went and bought StarCraft 2 anyway. Can't bash a game without actually playing it for real.
Good luck Smiley Be prepared to get soundly thrashed for your first 10 games or so. Tongue

If nothing else, there's some nice custom games you can play.
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« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2011, 05:34:43 AM »

Good luck Smiley Be prepared to get soundly thrashed for your first 10 games or so. Tongue

Actually I won most of them. I guess I had an edge over the other beginners (for the placement matches) since I've been watching pro StarCraft (2) commentaries for a long time. But god damn I hate playing Zerg; Queen spawn larvae is so micro-frustrating. Also, cloaked banshees get me every time. Even when I see them coming several minutes beforehand. Facepalm
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« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2011, 05:46:37 AM »

I hate competitive games until I get good at them, then I love them.

P.S. Where the hell is Bushido Blade 3 already!?
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« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2011, 12:56:06 AM »

I think casual vs competitive exists in all games at some level. I really think ultimately it's a choice. Rarely does a game force you to be one or the other.

If you take something as simple as Halo multiplayer, you can see the divide. You have those MLG kids playing in their own games, and casuals are content playing custom games all day with their friends.
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