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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignlittle miracles?
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Xecutor
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« on: November 28, 2010, 08:26:14 AM »

In movies character in a tight situation can slightly overcome his/her physical limits.
What about little miracles in games?
Jumps that shouldn't reach target platform, but they do.
Surviving devastating blow from boss with 1/2 of normal minumum hitpoints.
Surviving fall from too high point.
Of course miracles require some certain condition and a bit of luck.
Probably some high combo streak, health of boss under certain threshold...
It would be nice to simulate desperate struggle, but I can't think
anything except button mashing.
Ideally it would be nice to have dynamometer controller Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2010, 09:58:23 AM »

I believe Castlevania Lords of Shadow does this a bit (breaking rules for dramatic effec, or at least that's how I understand your post). You can use your whip as a grappling hook, but the actual distance you have to be from a grapple point in order to activate it varies (I think). I'm personally not a huge fan of it. I prefer a clear-cut ruleset, unless the game makes a point of fucking with the player, in which case it would cross over into "art game" territory.

If we're just talking about "miracles" in the sense of unlikely random events that help the player: Critical hits in RPGs come to mind and are probably the simplest form of this sort of thing. Also, the roguelike genre in general.

Also, fuckin' magnets.  Wink

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noah!
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2010, 12:32:20 PM »

Jumps that shouldn't reach target platform, but they do.
Surviving devastating blow from boss with 1/2 of normal minumum hitpoints.

Actually, the first is almost kinda simulated, with edge-grabbing and toe-grab jumps. Whether you count them as legit (in-game supported) miracles or not is debatable, but from the player's perspective pulling one off is definitely a miracle.  For an example of the second, check out EarthBound, which occasionally causes mortal attacks to leave your character standing with 1 HP.

Otherwise, I'm gonna have to go with the esteemed Mr. Sinclair here. Honestly, during normal conditions (and in most genres), I would prefer the parameters to be set in stone, and never vary unless the alternative is death. Otherwise you have players taking those advantages, and then feeling let down once the game decides they've ran out of luck and doesn't give it to them. You give players a 1/4 chance of an inch, and you better believe they'll take the probable mile.

Not that the idea is bad, if anything, it's a nice way to add a bit of balance by skewing the advantage to the player when it really matters. I guess that the problem lies in making it so infrequent that it can't be exploited. And at that point, why bother? As stated above, the RNG or subpixels could be particularly generous and make something that, to the player, seems like a miracle. But I don't know.
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Curseman
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2010, 12:36:28 PM »

In my opinion, the best way little miracles like these are represented in games is by exceptional player performance rather than any scripted game events.
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RCIX
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2010, 04:09:07 PM »

I remember reading somewhere (not sure where now Huh?) that games are all about defying the player's expectations (in a predictable way, that is). This idea certainly would do that, and i really like it!
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snowyowl
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2010, 04:40:04 PM »

I remember reading about a tabletop game (not a video game, but it's still relevant) where the character had to choose equipment from a set list. The amount you could carry was limited, but you were allowed a small number of "deus ex machina" items that, at the instant you first used them, turned into whatever you felt was most useful.
The in-game explanation was that you'd been carrying them along all along, and you're just very good at being prepared. Is there a shark in your way? How lucky you brought your can of shark repellent along!

Not entirely what you meant, but I like the idea of minor twists of fate that are rationed out.
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SundownKid
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2010, 06:06:41 PM »

I think that in most games, these kinds of things are not so much "miraculous" as just giving the player a break or extra wiggle room. For example, when you jump in a platformer due to your hitbox touching the edge, it can easily be repeated. In Earthbound, it is a given that you will not die instantly.

In NMH2 (Desperate Struggle Cheesy), the fact that you can shake the controller to avoid dying with 0 health is something the player might not know, but it happens every time if you actually pull it off, which strikes me as more annoying than a miracle (due to your anger at having not known about it earlier).

I think that to truly implement something like this, it has to be random, but not *required* to proceed. Otherwise, it would have to be something scripted because the player would otherwise not be able to proceed normally. For example, if they had to jump yea high and they had to try a bunch of times to reach that height.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 06:11:53 PM by SundownKid » Logged

Xion
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2010, 02:03:47 AM »

could be interesting if you got an (expected) boost in abilities when in a tight spot (low health, no ammo, running in terror) to simulate desperation, or maybe some carefully calculated algorithm could determine the need of a miracle based on the situation and then deliver them when it adds to the game experience, perhaps rewarding players for taking risks like jumping when they know they won't make it, or pushing through an otherwise immovable crowd of foes in a last big heave. (but not just 'whenever they need it' or it will stop being a miracle), something like the L4D director, but on the player's side. As has been said though, pure randomness would be an annoying thing indeed.
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2010, 09:53:56 PM »

Probably miracle-like things should happen in situations slightly beyond core gameplay.
During speed-runs or may be some restricted challenges?
It should require some above average performance from player.

I just remembered bunny-hopping in quake 2 and 3.
By jumping continuously and strafing while in mid-air, it was possible
to accelerate beyond limit and perform jumps that normally are impossible.
Ah! Rocket jump! Quadro damage + invulnerability rocket jump was awesome Smiley
Those memories...
I wonder if id Software deliberately made these features or it was coincidence?
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AshfordPride
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« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 12:58:50 PM »

Toying with hitboxes are a pretty fantastic way of tricking the player into think that he just got through a barrage of enemies/bullets/etc by the skin of his teeth when in fact he managed to dodge with room to spare.  Just make the hitbox of the player smaller than the sprite representing him, it's a great and simple way to make the player think he's pulled one over on the game.
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 01:14:10 PM »

Just like the automated platforming in Assassin's Creed that makes the player feels like he's pulling off awesome acrobatic jumps when it's really mostly the game doing it for him.
 Durr...?
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gimymblert
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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2010, 12:36:36 PM »

I wonder when someone would take auto jumping from assassin's creed and turn into a game of choosing awesome spatial tactical and contextual movement, i mean just instead of making cluttered environment flat from a control perspective.
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