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[JasonPickering]

so heres a quick question. I am working on a Roguelike. right now I have health as bars. I am not showing the player any numbers. this makes battle a little odd as you won't know if a hit will kill them. You will be able to find out an enemy's health amount. so you know a full bar means 5 health and half a bar is about 2 or 3. Also all enemies have the same bar. so an enemy with 5 health looks the same as an enemy with 20 health. it just drains slower as you attack. now it would just be easier to show numbers but I kind of like the simplicity of the bars. so what do you guys think. do bars convey everything you need. here is a picture for example.

[Inanimate]

Bars are great for ratios and understanding progress, but can make smaller amounts of damage harder to discern.

[AndrewFM]

The only disadvantage I see of using a bar is that you can't determine how large a bar's value is until AFTER the damage is done. With using text, it can be seen without needing to modify the value of the bar. So, for example, with a bar, you'd have to go up and physically attack an enemy to find out how strong it is. With text, you could immediately realize that the enemy has 20000 HP, and run for your life without having to initially put yourself at risk by getting close to it.

However, if needed, this could probably still be done with bars. When you are near an enemy, it could show a slightly darker area on you and the enemy's health bar. That darker area represents the amount of damage that would be done by your or the enemy's attack.

[qmvo73hoy]

Instead of using HP you could just use visual cues, like limbs falling off, armour falling apart etc.

[BlueSweatshirt]

I prefer the Kingdom Hearts system for this.(I prefer their implementation, but it's been used in several places)

They forewent numbers, but instead of just having one bar that scaled, they stacked bars up. It makes it easy to estimate just about how much hp an enemy has without the need for cumbersome numbers.

I've seen two kinds of implementations. One is common to fighting games, and one is unique to Kingdom hearts.

Fight Game Variant:

As you can see, bars are stacked directly on each other with various colors for each bar.

But in Kingdom Hearts:

There are small green boxes which represent how many health bars you'll need to go through. This way, players don't really need to memorize colors or anything to communicate stacked health bars.
I also feel like this method is easier to implement, along with cleaner in-game.
 

[SundownKid]

IMO, while damage numbers and stats are in many RPGs, they feel very arbitrary. While they are useful for direct comparison (this sword gives you 20 more attack and 10 less defense!), because the computer calculates everything for you, it really wouldn't matter if the game told you "you are doing weak damage to this enemy, train more" or "you are doing 10 damage per hit, which is weak, so train more". And forget about arbitrary weapon strength. This is different in something like a trading card game, where you have to calculate everything yourself.

Personally, I think the stacked health bar is more confusing than just a single health bar that decreases more slowly. It shows that you are doing less damage, so why not? I think color coding is a good idea to show power, for example, the color becomes different as you get more powerful to illustrate weak and strong enemies.

[jwk5]

You could make it so that the "impact effect" of an attack varies depending on what percentage of the enemy's life it takes away (for example the impact effect changes color or gets larger).

You could also place an icon before the health bar (or wherever) of an enemy that shows how strong the enemy is compared to the player.

[namragog]

You could make it so that the "impact effect" of an attack varies depending on what percentage of the enemy's life it takes away (for example the impact effect changes color or gets larger).

YES  this really works.
Or, you could make a procedural battle, like one enemy will take 3 hits in order to kill, even way later in game. using this, you could have two combat buttons, attack and dodge.
symbols for both come up at certain times, and you must quickly press them, like in god of war or something similar, when fighting a boss, yet this applies to every enemy.

this could also open up new possibilities for gameplay, as when you cut an enemy's arm off in the first attack, he would be essentially a new enemy, with different attacks.

 

[s0]

YES  this really works.
Or, you could make a procedural battle, like one enemy will take 3 hits in order to kill, even way later in game. using this, you could have two combat buttons, attack and dodge.
symbols for both come up at certain times, and you must quickly press them, like in god of war or something similar, when fighting a boss, yet this applies to every enemy.

this could also open up new possibilities for gameplay, as when you cut an enemy's arm off in the first attack, he would be essentially a new enemy, with different attacks.

I'm not sure I fully understand this, but it sounds friggin' fantastic. 

[namragog]

I'm not sure I fully understand this, but it sounds friggin' fantastic. 

  just wait and see! 

[JasonPickering]

wow guys lots of stuff.

alright so first off there isnt much math involved. all characters have an attack power and a health number. when you attack its health - attack. you will always do 3 damage if your attack power is 3. I also wish to keep all health probably under 25. so as little calculations are needed as possible. I like the idea of the icon jwk5 mentioned. maybe what I will do is give each enemy a level and their HP is that level times 5. so a level one is 5 life a level 2 is 10. the only difference being the attack power. right not  none of these numbers are known though. you currently do 1 damage. if you have an item thats +Atk you do 2 damage. these are not shown to the player though. they just know that having + Atk makes them hit harder but the math is never shown.

Maybe I should switch to a more defined bar graph and give the characters certain amounts. the shark will show 5 distinct bars. 5 hits and it is dead. but if you have +Atk you will see that each attack takes away two bars. this way I could show everything in the same system. you have 10 blocks, the enemies have between 3 and 10. more the way zelda works with its hearts system.

[SundownKid]

Having blocks would work fine, sure, but the heart system gets a bit stupid when you have ~15 of them. Individual units of health work well when there are only a small amount of them, otherwise you might as well use a bar.

I like the idea of the explosion getting bigger when you hit a weaker enemy. Those are always fun.

[ezuk]

The only disadvantage I see of using a bar is that you can't determine how large a bar's value is until AFTER the damage is done. With using text, it can be seen without needing to modify the value of the bar. So, for example, with a bar, you'd have to go up and physically attack an enemy to find out how strong it is. With text, you could immediately realize that the enemy has 20000 HP, and run for your life without having to initially put yourself at risk by getting close to it.

Here's another perspective: I like not knowing how big that health bar is.  If I encounter a new creature, shouldn't I be completely in dark about how strong it is?  I can get a few clues from its size and appearance, but in general I should be taking a risk in taking on something new.  Then, when I give it my best shot and that health bar doesn't budge, there's that shot of adrenalin as I wonder what have I gotten myself into?

If done well, this can lead to some tactical choices by the player such as attacking a new creature only with a long-range weapons or buffing up regularly on potions, etc. as a precaution.  It also makes combat less predictable and more exciting.

[JasonPickering]

Ezuk: you make a good point this is actually for a roguelike and most roguelikes do not show an enemies health. In my game you explore the sea and fight giant monsters. not knowing the health of an enemy fits in with the danger of exploration. the player will always know their attack power. so after the first encounter with a shark they will know that it has 5 health. usualy game like this will also give you a way to figure out this info. I am adding a photograph option. the player will have a journal with a short description of a monster. but if they take a photo they will also get a picture along with the health and attack power.

[jwk5]

You could also give clues to the strength of an enemy with their expression and animations. For instance, enemies weaker than the player could take on a scared look and enemies stronger than the player could sport an aggressive look. It'd take extra spriting but you'd not only be giving the player a means to gauge enemy strength but also a reward for getting stronger (you get to terrify your enemies).

[iffi]

But in Kingdom Hearts:

There are small green boxes which represent how many health bars you'll need to go through. This way, players don't really need to memorize colors or anything to communicate stacked health bars.
I also feel like this method is easier to implement, along with cleaner in-game.
 

This system is also used in the Touhou games, and I think it works very nicely to gauge approximately how long the boss lasts. Vindictus uses something similar, in which the health bar has a certain number next to it (such as x5, x6, etc.) that indicates how many times you have to lower the health bar to defeat the boss. The healthbar is colored red for x1, x2, and x3, orange up to x7 (I think), and green if the health is above that. (

a video if that didn't make any sense.)

In RPGs and other games heavily based on stats systems, I, being quite numbers-oriented, like being able to see the numbers. I like the sound of that photograph system - you don't know everything from the start, but if you take a photograph you're better prepared for the next time.

[Paint by Numbers]

I think the "multiple health bars" system fits best in games like fighting games and the Touhou games where there's a sort of arms race of increasingly more difficult opponents. It really lends itself to looking/giving a feeling of increasing strength and challenge.

[Muz]

Personally, I find knowledge to be a tricky thing to play with. It either improves the exploration or gets really frustrating. I wouldn't enjoy fighting "cute bunny creature" only to find that it (nearly) kills me in one hit. Or similarly fighting a creature who looks tough, but turns out to have low HP.

Eventually, I'd just give up and look for a wiki on the thing. The likelyhood of frustration is higher, not worth it unless you're targeting it with a group of people who enjoy not knowing.

This is amplified both ways if it's an online game, where people compete with/against each other. Exploration gets more fun, frustration gets much higher.

[Defsan]

I think that the depiction of the characters' stats changes according to the amount of control you have over your character. If the combat system is just pointing and clicking, then it helps having numbers displaying health and damage (and other stats), as the combat will probably consist only of stat comparisons and some random chances (for critical hits or whatever you want to implement).
If you have more control over your character (like actually jumping, moving, running, attacking), then you probably won't want to actually represent the stats as numbers, because maybe you want the player to try and kill the monster, even if he/she isn't totally sure if it's possible.
Since the second kind of combat system is more based on skill rather than stats, sometimes I'd want the player to try and kill a stronger monster, instead of thinking "well, my STR is only 30; I better go grind some more!"

[Retrogames]

Apart from RPGs (where the number-crunching essentially defines the genre), any game where statistics were originally used to simulate action and/or dynamic values can now be done via actual gameplay actions (i.e how high you can jump, hard you hit, etc.) and graphical indicators. I'm not saying numbers are bad, but depending on how you wish to present your game, you can honestly do without them.

In terms of seeing how much damage the player (or the enemy) will cause, I would consider taking AndrewFM's advice and having parts of the bar shaded to show how much damage either will cause, with one caveat; follow ezuk's advice and not reveal this information initially. Include it after you've attacked once, after you've taken a photograph, or via some kind of tool / ability the player character obtains. For example...

The first bar shows a shaded area; this is how much damage the enemy will cause if he hits the player. The SECOND bar takes that information and applies it to the entire health gauge; each hit from the enemy will take off one division of health. An enemy that causes less damage would look more like this, where the divisions are smaller;

Again, I would keep this information hidden until the player attacks / photographs / earns the ability / whatever.

I also think that labeling equipment with symbolic ratings rather than numerals can help 'de-math' your game. If you decide you'll have 5 weapons in the game, of increasing attack power, you might identify them with stars, bullets, or an appropriate symbol rather than say "+5 attack power". Obviously a *** Weapon is better than a ** Weapon, for example.

Finally, I'm not a fan of the multi-bar method Jakman4242 suggests. Having small pips representing additional health bars the player has to burn through (or "x2", "x3", etc... as iffi mentioned), at least to me, suggests a degree of tedium, even if the fight itself isn't actually tedious. To me, that sort of thing is saying "Look how much more impressive this enemy is; instead of having one health bar, it has two! That means it's twice as hard!". I'd much rather see smaller chunks taken off the same bar than see the same chunks taken off multiple bars, if that makes any sense.