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[The_Flying_Dove]

Well, I'd like to really examine the traditions of the Church, such as its teachings and how our culture was during the Medieval times, as a means to live in a less secular fashion. Thus, I would be more interested in seeing things like chant music as part of a game's audio rather than modern or postmodern music, with customs and values that people around that time carried. And, in doing so, a game that tries to be as close to that vision as possible, by limiting violence and sex to a great extent.

The way I see it, today's society is so filled with secularism in its ideas and culture that there must be so form of thirst for a different approach, which would, of course be a more religious one. After all, theater developed a lot around the ideas of the Greeks and of secularism alone, while mystery plays and other religious forms of theater were pretty much abandoned or lost. Whether you are a religious being or an irreligious one, you cannot deny that there has been little progress in the nonsecular ways of the media, so that may make creativity in this particular area worth pursuing.

[Philtron]

Consider a Real-Time Tactical game where you command the Israelites and their conquest of Canaan. That could be a good religious game if done right. Also, who was it that had to kill the enemies of a king and bring back their foreskins in order to marry a princess? Seems like that could be a backdrop for a stealth/assassin type of game.

My point is there is no reason to avoid violence, or sex, in a "religious" game, especially if you want to examine the beliefs of Medieval Christianity of all things, where violence against pagans was accepted, where dogma was strictly enforced, where alternative beliefs and world views were not tolerated at all, where flagellation was an accepted way of getting closer to God, where the ownership of non-Christian slaves was permitted by the Church (unless the slave converted to Christianity and then he/she had to be set free), and et cetera. Current religious views are very different than their ancient contemporaries; violence was an accepted part of religion in medieval society.

I also don't see why you want to be literal and why you want to avoid allegory since 1) allegory and symbolism are critical elements of every major religion/canonical religious text, and 2) allegory and metaphor make things multilayered rather than flat and vapid.

Anyway, Flying Dove, it seems you have a personal view you want imparted through a game in which case it is all on you. You have to think about what is important to you and what kind of gameplay would communicate/represent that. Ask yourself if you've ever encountered some gameplay that communicated to you something similar to your personal views; perhaps creating a game based on such mechanics would be a good place to start.

EDIT:
For a non-violent, non-sexual, game set in Medieval centuries, dealing with Christianity:
I remember reading about how the Vikings during raids would capture Christians and keep them as slaves. The Vikings would then go to markets and sell the slaves back to Christian monks. The Vikings knew that monks were required to free Christian people held as slaves as part of the doctrine of the Church at the time. I don't know how historically accurate this actually is.
The idea would be a money-management game where you are a Christian monk in Northern Europe and you have to buy back Christian slaves from the Vikings. To flesh out gameplay there could be the threat of bandits and the need to manage your money to afford food, lodging, and medicine when the kindness of strangers is not enough. The idea is thin right now but could be fleshed out, and is not a puzzle/adventure game.

[Dacke]

Flying Dove, you seem to have a very strange view of what life was like in medieval times.

...

I think that the term "religious game" is being a bit misused in this thread. Most of the discussions has been around games portraying the history of religions, starring religious people or re-telling stories related to religions. But all those things could fit into an anti-religious game as well as a religious one.

I think that for a game to be accurately called "religious" it has to convey religious ideas.

[Dacke]

How about a game where you have to lead a Sunni, Shiite, Palestinian, and an Israeli across a river?

aka
Sunni, Shiite, Sunni and Jew?

[The_Flying_Dove]

Okay, if you want a game that involves "religious ideas," Dacke, I'll give you one.

The game is similar to Ace Attorney. However, you're a Christian that is arguing for the ban of abortion. Now, you will have to present hard evidence that it is more detrimental to abort fetuses than to save them. In addition, you'll find yourself taking up similar cases, such as arguing against forcing priests to marry homosexuals in their churches. This might seem like it would tackle a lot of controversial topics, but, then again, who's to say that such games are to be banned? Where would H-games or Duke Nukem Forever be if this were this case?

[pgil]

Okay, if you want a game that involves "religious ideas," Dacke, I'll give you one.

The game is similar to Ace Attorney. However, you're a Christian that is arguing for the ban of abortion. Now, you will have to present hard evidence that it is more detrimental to abort fetuses than to save them. In addition, you'll find yourself taking up similar cases, such as arguing against forcing priests to marry homosexuals in their churches. This might seem like it would tackle a lot of controversial topics, but, then again, who's to say that such games are to be banned? Where would H-games or Duke Nukem Forever be if this were this case?

what?

[genericuser]

Okay, if you want a game that involves "religious ideas," Dacke, I'll give you one.

The game is similar to Ace Attorney. However, you're a Christian that is arguing for the ban of abortion. Now, you will have to present hard evidence that it is more detrimental to abort fetuses than to save them. In addition, you'll find yourself taking up similar cases, such as arguing against forcing priests to marry homosexuals in their churches. This might seem like it would tackle a lot of controversial topics, but, then again, who's to say that such games are to be banned? Where would H-games or Duke Nukem Forever be if this were this case?

1. I don't think the problem is a lack of ideas, it's that there are few religious games that are executed well.

2. Noone's arguing for such a game to be banned.

3. Your idea would most likely fall victim to becoming a "you vs. them" game, which is what you want to avoid.

[Feral_P]

Personally, I can't see what the advantage of making a religious game would be over using other media. Games, as I see them, are best at a) entertainment and b) emotion. So if your starting position is wanting to make something religious (either propaganda or a discussion of religion), I'm not sure why you'd pick games.

That is, if religion was used as more than just a theme; as an aesthetic choice, it could work very well - personally, I want to see the game suggested on the first page - managing the Catholic church through the ages. As a satirical game, naturally  

[Dacke]

Flying_Dove, that still doesn't really involve religious ideas per se. It's about propagating some ideals that are related to your specific religion, but isn't uniquely religious. Anti-abortion and homophobia exists independently of religion (even though many religions help to keep those ideals around).

I was thinking about things that are actually religious. Like conveying the feeling of believing in supernatural stuff for which there is no proof. Or at least teaching some dogma related to a religion.

Also.. banning games? What?

[The_Flying_Dove]

If it is focused on the topic of religion, even if only for debating reasons, I still would consider it a religious game. So, according to you, religious ideas are limited only to things spoken of, like God, or polytheistic ideas coming from other religions? I guess we see things differently then. As for having a game revolving around a religion's dogmas? Sure. Why not look towards something that of St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica? There are plenty of arguments for the existence of God and ones that defend the Catholic faith there.

Personally, I can't see what the advantage of making a religious game would be over using other media. Games, as I see them, are best at a) entertainment and b) emotion. So if your starting position is wanting to make something religious (either propaganda or a discussion of religion), I'm not sure why you'd pick games.

That is, if religion was used as more than just a theme; as an aesthetic choice, it could work very well - personally, I want to see the game suggested on the first page - managing the Catholic church through the ages. As a satirical game, naturally 

Not to seem disrespectful in any way, but there have been way more works in any medium that present the case for atheism or secularism, so why not have alternatives to this? Not many people in America know enough about how the Church really was like in the past, other than hearing about others talk about the Holy Crusades and such. What about monasticism, the Desert Fathers, or before the Church split up? People of other faiths never talk enough about those other times, acknowledging as if not a single positive thing came out of Christianity.

A game about disproving the Big Bang theory or evolution would be a good example of a counterargument, thus putting more of an equal balance on both sides of the argument. Perhaps a game that simulates the new earth theory might be another great religious game. Or how about even some alternative, lesser known atheist theories on the earth and the universe's existence?

[tergem]

  As a mod on a certain debate forum for the religious debates... this is where it starts to go downhill. Separating people into boolean areas where the fact is that they are really doubles. Everyone knows that is a syntax error.

It REALLY goes down-hill when evolution or the nature of the universe gets brought up (like it seems to be getting to), so please focus on the idea of a religious based game and how to do it well, without brining in your own personal beliefs. This is The_Flying_Dove's thread, it is about him and his game ideas, not about dogmas.

EDIT: The reason that I brought this up is because raw emotions are coming about and people are butting heads with things not really related to what this thread was to be about. So keep calm and classy.

[s0]

As a mod on a certain debate forum for the religious debates...

Wow, that must be hell. 

[DrOctapu]

That Catholic church strategy game idea sounds awesome. Any game about managing a religion would be awesome. As for real games, though, I've never found one I like. They tend to be generic and preachy. Even before I was an atheist I didn't like them. Hardly any interesting concepts, unless you count Assassin's Creed.

[Zaphos]

Not to seem disrespectful in any way, but there have been way more works in any medium that present the case for atheism or secularism

Uh, no?

[Gorgoo]

I think one problem that you'll run into is that games are largely about conflict, even more than many other art forms (stories are pretty similar, but poetry, visual art, and music don't require it). If you make a game that is about the history of a religion, you need to play up the conflict or it won't be engaging. Unfortunately, it's easy to fall into the trap of "us vs. them", where the religion you choose is uniformly good and everyone else is either evil or just missing something.

For example, a game about exposing corruption in a church without getting caught, all while trying to uphold the morals that your religion promotes, could be really neat. A game where you're trying to convert people to your religion, and where the villains are all either atheists or from other religions, will probably drive off anyone who isn't a member of that religion.

So the lawyer game you proposed probably wouldn't work very well, only because a lot of people wouldn't want to play it. Being obvious when trying to convince people of things doesn't usually work well, especially in games. But just showing those things in the context of the game's conflict might make for an engaging game.

Basically, if you want to promote religious beliefs, don't tell people they're wrong for not following them. But if you make them an inherent part of one of the game's conflicts, you can promote them without having to tell people anything.

-----

So what ideas do I think would work as religious games? (I'm sticking to Christianity here because I know the most about it, and because it seems to be the main focus of discussion in this thread).

Church Management: That actually was a good idea, Dove. It's just that you seemed to be focusing a lot on the positive end, with no conflict inside the church (but maybe you just didn't think to mention that). I'd make the game about creating a prosperous church, but allow the player a chance to be corrupt. They can abuse authority and keep people down in order to get money faster and maintain the buildings (and give luxury to their clergy). But if, instead, they focus on the happiness of their followers, they'll convert people more easily and be able to spread without warfare. If I didn't want to go fully historical, I might give "good" players access to some miracles. But there wouldn't be a "light/dark" system, because that would make people who don't agree with the game's morals feel insulted (and make them not want to play the game, which defeats the purpose). Instead, it would be a conflict between doing things the easy way (which makes people unhappy and oppressed) or the hard way (which makes people really believe that there's something to the religion, but is more difficult).

Supernatural Action: I don't think this is what you were talking about in the beginning of the thread, but I think it could really be a neat game, while retaining religious themes. The one I'm thinking of involves a demonic invasion, with people being possessed and killing people. The main character would have the option of banishing the demons by destroying the people they're possessing, but with work, he (or she) could also exorcise them nonviolently. Doing so would grant them a new ally, since they just saved that person's life. The game might have other situations that people could solve quickly and pragmatically, or, with some work, hold to their ideals. Doing the latter would be harder and put the character in more danger, but might offer more rewards.

-----

I actually think that the Metal Gear Solid series is a good example of how to promote a morality in a game. It doesn't touch on religion at all, but the series is full of anti-war themes, and yet the player controls a soldier. Rather than reprimanding the player for being a soldier, the game offers rewards at the end if they managed to accomplish their goal (things like stopping a terrorist bombing attempt or rescuing captives) without killing anyone. Of course, since all the villains are willing to kill them, that puts them at a serious disadvantage. But they get encouraged to try anyway.

I think that a good religious game would be like that, but replace "killing" with something like "being corrupt" or "being violent" or whatever. "Do I believe in the big bang?" isn't a very game-able conflict, but "Can I manage to run a major religion without corruption?" and "Can I protect myself without fighting back (turn the other cheek, etc.)" definitely are.

Sorry for the length.

[jwk5]

I would like a game like The Sims except it is two players and one plays as God and the other plays as Satan and you are constantly trying to win the characters over to your side by toying with the emotions, dreams, temptations, etc. of the characters or manipulating events in the world, creating miracles, etc.

Me and my sister had something like that going on in the GameCube version of "The Urbz" (that "hip" version of the sims) where you could play it split-screen two players. She was trying hard to build up this nice happy city and I was going out of my way to unleash Hell. It was hilarious.

[eclectocrat]

Sounds a bit like you want an evangelical game. I find it hard to imagine that it wouldn't be boring or obnoxious. No one who is not already converted would want to be play a game with an outright agenda that they don't vibe with. I think your best bet would be to make a game wherein situations arise that can be interpreted in a religious tone. So going back to your examples about abortion and marrying gays, forcing a situation would come off as ham fisted at best. You'd probably have better luck if the character(s) in the game slowly worked up to a situation where you have to make a decision about abortion (or, x, or y, or z) in order to progress to the next stage of play. Then you have the option of presenting ideological viewpoints in a more natural game setting, through NPC's or level design, or text blobs, or even power ups. So you can choose to abort a baby and get some temporary power up that lets you do X, but your guilt meter fills up a little more, until you turn into a nervous wreck without control for a short time. The alternative of not aborting the baby does some other game mechanic, like giving you an NPC, or attracting help from strangers when you're attacked (babies are cute...?), whatever.

I don't think I'd play a game that presents itself as a religious game, forcing players to take a position, but I'd play a fun game that presented moral or ideological dilemmas in terms of game mechanics... if the mechanics are fun.

[tergem]

As a mod on a certain debate forum for the religious debates...

Wow, that must be hell. 

Sorry about the earlier post, I just am used to intervening on things preemptively.

[Dacke]

If it is focused on the topic of religion, even if only for debating reasons, I still would consider it a religious game.

I don't think that a game about religion has to be religious. Just like how a discussion about religion doesn't have to be religious. The things I am saying now, for example, are not religious even though I am discussing religion.

Why not look towards something that of St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica? There are plenty of arguments for the existence of God and ones that defend the Catholic faith there.

I am familiar with his arguments. They do not hold, what so ever. That fact must have been established a few hundred years ago. I'm a bit surprised that it still gets brought up.

As a mod on a certain debate forum for the religious debates... this is where it starts to go downhill. Separating people into boolean areas where the fact is that they are really doubles. Everyone knows that is a syntax error.

I was talking about dividing games and ideas into categories, not people.

This is The_Flying_Dove's thread, it is about him and his game ideas, not about dogmas.

And because The_Flying_Dove is a catholic, there should be no problem with me bringing up dogma. I know that the word "dogma" has bad connotations among the general public, but I was well aware that I was talking to someone of catholic faith:
   "In the Roman Catholic Church, a dogma is an article of faith revealed by God"

edit: small grammatical changes

[Philtron]

Sounds a bit like you want an evangelical game.

I agree. So far, Flying Dove, it seems what you're really asking is "Why aren't my personal views represented in games?"

Not many people in America know enough about how the Church really was like in the past...

Apparently neither do you. You seem to be idealizing the Church's past and overlooking all aspects of its dogma that are uncomfortable to think about. I reiterate what I said earlier: Medieval Christianity had no problems with keeping slaves as long as the slaves themselves were not Christians. Shouldn't you in some way acknowledge this if you are making a game about Christianity throughout history?

People of other faiths never talk enough about those other times, acknowledging as if not a single positive thing came out of Christianity.

What? What people "of other faiths" have you been talking to that makes you think this? Positive things have come out of Christian institutions, such as Gregor Mendel, but why do you want to make a game that ignores the negative things? Why do you want to make a game that forces people to behave in ways that are congruent with your personal ideology as opposed to giving them choice?

Here's a link to a flash game called Loved. You might have played it. If you haven't, then you should.

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/539211

It is very much a religious game even if it wasn't intended to be. It explores religious ideas without directly referring to them and the whole time it allows the player to make his own choices.