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[Schoq]

a win-win really

[Canned Turkey]

Hey here's an idea
How about we don't do this

Besides the "world down's syndrome day" coincidence, which is arguably in poor taste on my part, I do not see a reason to avoid pointing out the ridiculousness of the development team working on the game, and their ludicrous claims of putting their hearts into it.

As someone who is currently biologically a "White Male"™ I find it offensive that such people can be praised for their non-constructive opinions when if the gender and race of their remarks were reversed, none of them would be leads at a AAA company like bioware.

Not saying white/male social bias/privilege isn't a thing, but saying things akin to "Fuck off", "I hate [ANY people group]", and "You're the problem" are not wholesome and it saddens me to see a great game series be ruined by toxic devs for the sake of some sort of forced diversity.

[rj]

Not saying white/male social bias/privilege isn't a thing, but saying things akin to "Fuck off", "I hate [ANY people group]", and "You're the problem" are not wholesome and it saddens me to see a great game series be ruined by toxic devs for the sake of some sort of forced diversity.

dude yeah no ok look you're generally pretty levelheaded so please listen for a sec

1: so here's the deal. as a white dude, which i Am One, here, it may be hard to grasp, but if you get ears burny at the phrase "i hate men" you should recognize that anyone who says that has heard "i hate women" in millions of ways (going all the way from "smile more" to literally "i hate women" obviously) and maybe venting frustration in a way that is clearly not meant to be taken as anything but a joke/a primal outrage scream to help cope is a good way of gaining some quiet control back into one's life. maaaaaybe the best response to "kill all men" isn't "wow lmao this is a terrible thing to say" but rather listening to why they said that (very clearly exaggerated) statement in the first place.

2: this has nothing to do with the quality of the game, and i should make it clear that i am only responding to this point on its individual basis: "forced diversity" is very silly as a concept. i don't see how including more characters of backgrounds aside from straight white men are a bad thing ever since it can only be good for writing characters who are interesting. the only situation where this could be construed as bad is if you assume Straight White Dudes are the default option; diversity in fiction is only "forced" from a viewpoint of "man it should have been white dudes/straight people/heteronormative people here," and if you ask yourself why you feel that way, and are honest with yourself, it's likely because that's the thing you are and you enjoy seeing yourself in fiction. amazingly, other people exist and enjoy that same thing.

plus learning to identify with people unlike yourself through fiction is a good way of building that skill for real life; fiction influences us way more than you'd think. media is important.

3: assuming any one woman's political views somehow have caused an entire video game to fall apart is very silly. taking a few memetically funny examples of AAA pipeline fatigue causing some animation failures and then blaming one or two women for it is very clearly unhealthy and ludicrous. to say that a few janky animations early on in a giant game have completely ruined it is also silly, especially if you then go and claim that it was caused by a desire for diversity, when....clearly that is... . .. . not . ... . ... a sensical argument .. . . .. .(it's a triple a video game that got rushed out too early. that's the story. end of it.)

[rj]

also as a white dude if you find anything commenting on or calling out your whitness or dudeness offensive literally ever think for a second how much more someone who doesn't look like you gets offended every day and is expected to swallow that feeling and not speak up about it

you have an advantage just by being a white dude because you have the option of not paying attention to it most days. if being forced to think about it sometimes and get uncomfortable as a result is a problem...then that probably means that thinking about it is a good idea

[Schoq]

however spending 100% of your political energy being mad at white boys while not unionizing is unproductive

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Besides the "world down's syndrome day" coincidence, which is arguably in poor taste on my part, I do not see a reason to avoid pointing out the ridiculousness of the development team working on the game, and their ludicrous claims of putting their hearts into it.[/b]

Hey I know you're young and mostly do pixel art stuff, so im not super mad at this baffoonery, but bookmark this thread and hmu if you ever try to make something 3d w/ aaa production values.

[Canned Turkey]

@rj
I understand the reasons and I didn't mean to say people weren't valid in pointing out and trying to get rid of the differences in how people groups are treated, I only meant that when people are toxic and rude as a facade and when asked why they say "Fuck you that's why", it not only takes away from the validity of the sole persons point, but also turns others away from a seeing their perspective.

I was taking about "forced diversity" of the devteam not the characters, equal representation is great in a character-set as well as a creative team, but from my perspective seeing that the final group of lead designers were people who are more focused on their rudely presented brand of social justice instead of making a videogame directly transferred to the quality of the final product.

Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3 were all AAA games and took around 2-3 years each to make while Andromeda took 5, so I don't see how it could have been rushed.

Even if I am a white dude or not a dude or black dude, any dude/dudete should feel valid in not wanting to have others say they hate them and be told to fuck off simply for existing. If anyone says they are for the social justice of all, that includes all people, not just whoever has been hit by the most shit. Shit is shit and should be called out no matter how much there is.

@Schoq
I am only playing the centrist "devil's advocate" to promote healthy discussion as my profile says, I hope I'm not taking away from any chitchat about the real game you wanted to spur up, if so I can start a different thread.

@joseph
I work within my tiny means and I think cosplayers should also stick to what they're good at which apparently isn't facial animation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Hey I know you're young and mostly do pixel art stuff, so im not super mad at this baffoonery, but bookmark this thread and hmu if you ever try to make something 3d w/ aaa production values.

I work within my means and I think cosplayers should also stick to what they're good at which apparently isn't facial animation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hey, how exactly do you think mocap works?

[Schoq]

@Schoq
I am only playing the centrist "devil's advocate" to promote healthy discussion as my profile says, I hope I'm not taking away from any chitchat about the real game you wanted to spur up, if so I can start a different thread.

I dunno if I should be flattered or disappointed that anything I said itt came across as anything beyond "haha videogames"

[Canned Turkey]

@joseph
Is that an honest question as a part of your reply or are you being hypothetical?
Either way I wasn't trying to say I would do any better. I would think a heavily experienced individual as the lead for any project would be the best pick, that's my point in saying that Allie Leost was an odd choice.

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

@joseph
Is that an honest question as a part of your reply or are you being hypothetical?
Either way I wasn't trying to say I would do any better. I would think a heavily experienced individual as the lead for any project would be the best pick, that's my point in saying that Allie Leost was an odd choice.

It's an honest question -- the thing is, leost worked at ea's motion capture labs, and I haven't seen any raw mocap data shown in a making-of, so we have no indicator of her skill or lack thereof at her job.

[Superb Joe]

Much Ado About Nothing: The Continuing Adventures of Shut Ins

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

@joseph
Is that an honest question as a part of your reply or are you being hypothetical?
Either way I wasn't trying to say I would do any better. I would think a heavily experienced individual as the lead for any project would be the best pick, that's my point in saying that Allie Leost was an odd choice.

It's an honest question -- the thing is, leost worked at ea's motion capture labs, and I haven't seen any raw mocap data shown in a making-of, so we have no indicator of her skill or lack thereof at her job.

(she does have a degree and seven years of experience in it though, so I would assume she's ok. How old were you in 2011 when she started pursuing her field?)

[Superb Joe]

The animations in this game look kind of funny
62 views, 3 comments

The animations in this game look kind of funny and also [in killer instinct announcer voice] Gender
173,747,657,916,003,201 views, 800,679,456 comments

[Canned Turkey]

@joseph
Not talking about skill here so sorry if I was miss-wording it, but her online resume says nothing about experience in videogame design or mo-cap, which is why I included it in the original post. If she does have a degree than that point falls flat on my lack of research, I mainly was including her because of her animation reel starting with "I hate".

@Joe

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

@joseph
Not talking about skill here so sorry if I was miss-wording it, but her online resume says nothing about experience in videogame design or mo-cap, which is why I included it in the original post. If she does have a degree than that point falls flat on my lack of research, I mainly was including her because of her animation reel starting with "I hate".

https://www.linkedin.com/in/allierosemarie/

I gotta reiterate: how do you think mocap works? Why would videogame design be a core skill there? why wouldn't multiple 'animator' roles and an 'animation pa' role be the perfect resume for it?

trash talking a team working on a kind of game you know nothing about making's effort is poor taste and I'd expect better from someone who has experience with game development.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Canned Turkey]

In 2011 I was 11 and working on my first game, which was beyond shitty.
I didn't mean to trash talk, I don't think I said anything misinformed besides not seeing that the lead animator did in fact have plenty of experience.

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

In 2011 I was 11 and working on my first game, which was beyond shitty.
I didn't mean to trash talk, I don't think I said anything misinformed besides not seeing that the lead animator did in fact have plenty of experience.

that speaks to your lack of awareness about game development outside of your (very limited) experience. If you can't think of a dozen reasons the game could have come out how it did aside from 'the developers didn't work hard' and 'the animator was a cosplayer'(??) you don't have much business calling them out.

[Canned Turkey]

I don't think pointing out the rudeness, and at the time what I had seen as inexperience although I had made a mistake with that part, of the creative team makes me any more or less aware of game development. I have worked by my own self on games for a while but you are right in saying I lack any and all knowledge of what it is really like to work on a large game team to make a AAA game. I never pretended I could do any better myself, but the fact is the faces looks goofy and the gameplay has already gotten poor reviews and EA will probably not make up the $40 million dollars they spent on it, I think it's okay to talk about issues with the bigger picture of the game without having to know how mo-cap works or how to animate a face.

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

I don't think pointing out the rudeness, and at the time what I had seen as inexperience although I had made a mistake with that part, of the creative team makes me any more or less aware of game development. I have worked by my own self on games for a while but you are right in saying I lack any and all knowledge of what it is really like to work on a large game team to make a AAA game. I never pretended I could do any better myself, but the fact is the faces looks goofy and the gameplay has already gotten poor reviews and EA will probably not make up the $40 million dollars they spent on it, I think it's okay to talk about issues with the bigger picture of the game without having to know how mo-cap works or how to animate a face.

I agree, however so far you've been making granular claims of impropriety or lack of qualifications of individual employees which you are hardly qualified to diagnose and do not in any way constitute the bigger picture.