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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignBan bvanevery?
Poll
Question: Should bvanevery be banned?  (Voting closed: October 13, 2010, 11:35:19 PM)
Yes - 92 (57.9%)
No - 67 (42.1%)
Total Voters: 137

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Author Topic: Ban bvanevery?  (Read 30863 times)
Skofo
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2010, 03:41:07 AM »

He reminds me of myself.

Agreed. Let's ban this guy while we're at it. Wink
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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2010, 05:20:51 AM »

I looked at his past 300+ posts he made since he got here and quite frankly, his attitude isn't that bad until you mention "game design". But when it does, he becomes a jerk.

He's the kinda guy that says exactly what he thinks, however, he chooses ways that makes him look quite arrogant and tends to take shots at people by using elaborated sentences to make them feel inferior to him. Basicaly, when looking at his posts, he's a guy you want to punch in the face. And now that his reputation is made, whatever he posts looks like he's attacking someone event if he is not. The joys of internet social behaviors.

To be honest, at this point mr bvanevery, I'd just walk out, close the account and come back later. Think about why people want to kick you in the nuts when you start posting on game design. The attitude you have shown has gotten you this ban poll. If you ever want to come back, just don't make the same mistake twice and remember that nobody is right when it comes to game design. Nobody. If there's anything you want to add, contact me.
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HDSanctum
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« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2010, 05:55:54 AM »

I love how I keep misreading his name as 'bravery'. Ban Bravery?
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Hangedman
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« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2010, 06:03:53 AM »

Open discussion, even abrasive/aggressive discussion is fine and should be encouraged.

But that's not really what happens.
He arrives in a thread in which a peaceful discussion is ongoing, says something inflammatory, raises a specific point of argument, and continually obstructs everyone from  actually getting back to discussing the original topic by rehashing the same argument repeatedly.

Also, this curious habit of never finishing what he starts with regards to arguments. Calls for evidence or clarity are met with misdirection or silence.

In essence, troll or not, he's derailing threads and continuously stringing the people along who are still attempting to have a civil discussion with him, in spite of his actions.

To paraphrase a strange image I saw yesterday;
A strong argument is like a penis.
It's fine to have one.
It's fine to whip it out in a situation where it is warranted.
But shoving it in people's faces for no reason gets you in trouble.
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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2010, 06:57:12 AM »

It is like the Super Joe thing all over again, except that Super Joe at least was entertaining to read. Well, sometimes.

Ban is an extreme method, but bvanevery could do with some chill pill. Let's ban him temporarily - say, for one week - then open interesting debates touching all aspects of game design. Then as soon as he is unbanned, lock those threads so he can't reply to them. If he starts a new thread to reply to those threads, post hot dogs in them.

In short, deny him that he'd been denying us - a productive debate.

Disclaimer: I am half serious. Which half, up to your judgment.
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Rob Lach
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« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2010, 07:14:20 AM »

I say no since I'm against censorship unless it directly harms someone, which in this case I don't feel it does.

What would be better if there was an "ignore this user".
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2010, 07:39:17 AM »

i'm against banning anyone, ever, because i think free speech is important

that said i do think he makes the forum a worse place, and is a really bad narcissist (like on the level of adam coate, mdickie, jforce, tim langdell, etc.), and has a long, long history (10+ years) of acting the same way. so if you do keep him don't expect things to get better, they'll just get worse

one way of dealing with him which was proposed in 2006 or so was to delete any post of his in a topic after the first one. because he basically gives an interesting and insightful opinion in his first post. however, every subsequent post of his in a thread is him attacking anyone who disagrees with his thoughts on a subject.

he also does believe he's superior to most of us (this comes with being a narcissist). he has said he's smarter than 99% of the population, and that if you're poor it's because you're lazy, and he believes that social manipulation of other people is the key to getting ahead, and that people should use each other as tools, not treat each other as friends or equals:

One of the hallmarks of a good social manipulator, is they're better at it than people who think it's "not ok" to do it.  There's a reason that such socially intelligent people get farther ahead in society.  Namely, that this is half of how the human brain evolved, it's one of the major driving factors in human evolution.  No, we didn't just make tools, we used each other as tools.

so basically, if you believe that you should ban people when they disrupt the conversation for their own ends (e.g. spamming) you probably also believe that you should ban people who believe that you should use other people as tools and to manipulate them.

of course i'm an ideologue and don't believe you should ban either disruptive people, trolls, or even non-bot spammers (bots are okay to ban because they aren't people). so now that i've presented the reasons why you might want to ban him, here are the reasons you should not:

he adds things to the conversation which would not otherwise be said, and has a couple unique ideas. some may be crazy and stupid ideas, but they are ideas that would not otherwise be expressed, and variety is important.

he also serves as a mental exercise for users here: it was fun to see supershigi argue against him (as i said, i thought she was "on fire" in her responses to him). she never would have made those amazing posts if he wasn't here to argue with :D

he also adds interest to the forums here. as people have mentioned, they like the forums when they are dramatic / interesting, and what's more dramatic than a self-deceptive, narcissistic troll arguing with everyone? i'm not being tongue-in-cheek, i do think such people genuinely add interest value to the forums and make them more entertaining to read, even while they sometimes disrupt genuine conversation and intellectual progress. basically you're trading boring rationality for entertainment, which is sometimes a good trade. truth usually isn't as interesting as fantasy and illusion, so a dose of fantasy and illusion is okay. the forums are strong enough to handle him.

i'm also a determinist and believe that narcissism is probably due to brain structure and hormones and genetics, not to choice. to at least some degree, he can't help acting the way he acts. so it'd feel bad to me to ban him for something he can't help but do. it's not like he wants to be a jerk, he just *is* a jerk, it's part of who he is on the inside. and it'd be wrong to reject him for who he is.

so my suggestion is threefold:

1) don't ban him, but perhaps give him a special title on the sidebar so that people know he's dangerous to rational thought.

2) unban everyone else who is banned: super joe, cas, kon-tiki, jforce, adam coate, etc. they too add drama to the forums and interest value and say unique things, even though they are disruptive. disruptive people disrupt the boringness of normal people. give them similar sidebar titles.

3) add an ignore feature (a plug-in) to this forum so that people can ignore who they don't like, including the people above. that way you can satisfy the people who don't like being offended. i imagine it's relatively simple to add an ignore plug-in, and an ignore feature is far superior to banning, because it allows individual people to ban those that bother them on a case-by-case basis. perhaps even put them on everyone's ignore list as the default, but allow users to individually "opt-in" to being able to read their posts.

tl;dr version: don't ban him, but give him a warning label on the sidebar, and add an ignore feature to the forums. unban super joe.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:06:06 AM by Paul Eres » Logged

Hangedman
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« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2010, 08:03:03 AM »

Well put, Rinku.

I have to say, my main concern with having people on the forums who are known to disrupt discussions is that they tend to drag people down to their level, i.e., the discussion falls apart and turns into a series of jokes.

On this forum, however, I don't see that being the case.
We can have a discussion even with an abrasive influence.
Nevertheless, I think an ignore feature would be extremely helpful for those who simply don't want to get involved, and I know they are many, and they can simply act as if he is not there. Whereas anyone who cares to try may attempt to engage the disruptive person.

Anyway, a forum title to the effect of 'Beware of Dog' would not go amiss.

That being said, I don't really think having a disruptive influence around is a necessity to keep things interesting.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:08:39 AM by Hangedman » Logged

AUST
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« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2010, 08:04:05 AM »

I voted no as I am not really in favour of banning people who aren't directly causing harm. I don't understand much of his arguments to to his unweildy explanations and am certain he's acting like a jerk but there's no doubt it makes for entertaining discussion.

Basically I don't think he's enough trouble to get rid of due to his unusual and sometimes interesting insights but is disruptive enough it would be good to be able to ignore him.
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« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2010, 08:04:40 AM »

I voted no because people who want to ban people are generally stupider that the people they want banned. If we ban all dissenters we'll end up in a pokemon-kids-Huge-pixel-is-cool-pastel-colors-only community. Fuck that shit.
Also 50% of Bvanerey is caused by a few trolls who are turning around him like flies.
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« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2010, 08:08:36 AM »

So, what're the chances of getting an ignore user/thread feature?
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mirosurabu
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« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2010, 08:15:33 AM »

Ignore user was never of use to me. ): Discussions get broken which you solve by reading ignored user's quoted posts.

As for ignoring threads, I have yet to try that. D:

Banning user is unnecessary in this case. It's only useful when user is a total dick who doesn't want to stop making stupid/flame-inducing posts after numerous warnings, which I'm pretty sure Every is not doing.

Raising concern gets total yes from me but within healthy limits only.
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« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2010, 08:30:26 AM »

Anyway, a forum title to the effect of 'Beware of Dog' would not go amiss.

"Do Not Feed"?
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Gnarf
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« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2010, 08:32:57 AM »

I voted no. The man even appears to put some thought and effort into making his posts. Is cool.

I haven't read that many of his posts. And some of them I've read on page that lists his posts, so some context might be lost on me. But judging by that it's like fine. And then the people who complain about how disruptive he is are the people who pop up in the middle of a thread just to tell everyone to shut up and stop discussing the topic of the thread...

And an ignore user option sounds horrible. An ignore thread thing sounds fine, but bunch of dudes posting in a thread where they can only read like half the posts sounds like a mess. (so yeah, some thing where all the threads that someone has posted in gets ignored would be fine, but then that sounds like pretty far out)
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Hangedman
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« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2010, 08:37:30 AM »

And then the people who complain about how disruptive he is are the people who pop up in the middle of a thread just to tell everyone to shut up and stop discussing the topic of the thread...

I suppose, but they wouldn't come stomping into the topic if he wasn't there in the first place, which is I guess the foundation for this whole vote.
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AUST
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« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2010, 09:49:15 AM »

A title might be seen as a reward Smiley

I would even settle for him having just one argument at once rather than multiple sequential posts replying to each of his baited responders, I get bored even scrolling past them.

eta: wasn't langdell a director of IGDA too?
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bento_smile
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« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2010, 10:00:24 AM »

Can we ban the IGDA?  Beer!
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2010, 10:26:18 AM »

Quote
i'm against banning anyone, ever, because i think free speech is important

yeah sure, I do too. but if you are at a restaurant or a bar, and someone is being super loud and obnoxious, disrupting people's conversations and arguing would you let him stay because derp "free speech" ? If the bartender asked "do you mind if I throw his loud annoying asshole out?" would you really object? I would be one of the first telling him to boot the annoying wanker out. That is exactly how I feel about the situation.

I think the comfort-level of the forums is more important than any one person's ability to post or not. If too many people like bvanevery, adam coate, jforce, etc. are here on the forums and not regularly banned it would lead to an even larger and disagreeable user base and a less friendly forum. Aside from people like anarkex and ashfordpride who rarely post, arguments and massive derailments aren't as common as other forums I've been to. If you don't ban these people and that behavior is tolerated, why would I or anyone else want to participate in the forums? I can't be alone in wanting less arguments can I?

(also unban superjoe, he was actually funny unlike the other trolls who deserved their ban).
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2010, 11:01:59 AM »

restaurants and bars don't call themselves 'forums' though. the main purpose of a bar or restaurant is drink and food. the main purpose of a forum is speech.

and i don't mean free speech as in the first amendment btw (who cares about the constitution, nobody pays attention to it anyway), i meant free speech as in the idea that places of discussion are made better by not restricting who can take part in that discussion.

and i think perhaps the issue of not wanting to take part in discussions that have people like bvanevery and people like ashford pride in them is at least partially solved with the ignore option. i don't think that people like that will ever overrun our outnumber other types of people, they're a minority whether they're allowed to speak or not.
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« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2010, 11:08:26 AM »

yeah sure, I do too. but if you are at a restaurant or a bar, and someone is being super loud and obnoxious, disrupting people's conversations and arguing would you let him stay because derp "free speech" ? If the bartender asked "do you mind if I throw his loud annoying asshole out?" would you really object? I would be one of the first telling him to boot the annoying wanker out. That is exactly how I feel about the situation.
Exactly. This forum isn't a democratic state, it's a privately-run platform for people to discuss stuff. Suggesting that banning someone from an internet forum is akin to throwing them in jail or denying them their right to free speech is ridiculous.

Note that I'm actually against banning bvanevery, it just really bothers me when people appeal to "free speech" in ban discussions.
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