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[BlueSweatshirt]

This is mainly for personal research, but it'll hopefully turn into an interesting discussion nonetheless.

The in-prompt-to question is simple:
For you, what is hit-and-miss in fighting games? In other words, what do you like, and what do you not?

Feel free to reference specific games, or be as vague as you'd like.

[EDIT]
I've created a Google Form survey to fill out on my blog. I'd appreciate if you'd respond there in one way or another.
http://jackedtech.blogspot.com/2009/12/survey.html

[kyn]

To be honest what I care most in a fighting game is if it is popular or not. Okay stay with me here, what I mean is, I don't care much for fighting against the CPU and if the game doesn't have a huge fanbase, the less likely I will find someone interested in fighting against me.
Of course the game has got to have some standards, but it's pretty shitty when you love fighting a game and you don't have anyone to play with. Perfect example, I looove Dead or Alive 2, and for years I built up my technique playing against the CPU. But when I invite someone who never played the game before to fight against me, I beat them easily and they end up becoming frustrated after a few matches because I know lot's of tricks and combos and they know nothing. Because of this I haven't touched the game in years because, well, what's the point, I don't have anyone to fight with.

[Radnom]

I find it important that I can have a clear relation between the buttons I press and the actions on-screen. Moves that require a bunch of seemingly random button presses to perform don't make sense to me.

I prefer something like Super Smash Bros. control scheme in which if you know the controls for one character, you already have the skill set to perform any move with any character.

I like a control scheme with just four buttons max that covers the following:
Weak, fast, short range basic move
Stronger, slower, possibly longer range move
Block
Dodge
and a combination of a direction and the above to do specific moves.

[BlueSweatshirt]

Thanks for the responses, guys!
And I think that's a great point, kYn, although you can't really give a straightforward solution to.(besides to make your game good and well known)

I think that's a good point, Radnom. One of the things that I know detracts a lot of players from games like Street Fighter, is the extraneous amount of buttons for simple attack/kick variations there are.

[TheDustin]

I think the purest distillation of the fighting genre would be Bushido Edge.
http://www.glorioustrainwrecks.com/files/bedge.rar
It's a Bushido Blade demake that's better than the original title. It has a rock/paper/scissors system that forces you to read your opponent to have any chance at winning. But keep in mind reflexes plays a large role as well.

My personal favorite fighting series would be the first two Smash Bros. titles. To go with what Radnom was saying it's easy to dive into playing multiple characters. It's easy to pick up and play in general, which is awesome. Having the luck elements helps keep the playing field level and makes for more interesting matches. I played Melee since it's release and love the deeper gameplay mechanics it has for the more ardent player. And being able to customize the matches to your liking really adds a lot of replay value. So I guess "easy to learn, hard to master, and highly customizable" would be the gist of it.

I played a lot of Soul Calibur II way back when, and I guess what drew me in was how radically different the characters played.

I never did care for any other fighters, really. I never liked having to remember all the combos in Street Fighter, and never could achieve a sense of "flow" like I could with the above games. I played TMNT Tournament Fighters when I was 4, but all I remember doing was playing as Donatello and repeating a single bo staff lunge. 

[shig]

To be honest what I care most in a fighting game is if it is popular or not. Okay stay with me here, what I mean is, I don't care much for fighting against the CPU and if the game doesn't have a huge fanbase, the less likely I will find someone interested in fighting against me.
Of course the game has got to have some standards, but it's pretty shitty when you love fighting a game and you don't have anyone to play with. Perfect example, I looove Dead or Alive 2, and for years I built up my technique playing against the CPU. But when I invite someone who never played the game before to fight against me, I beat them easily and they end up becoming frustrated after a few matches because I know lot's of tricks and combos and they know nothing. Because of this I haven't touched the game in years because, well, what's the point, I don't have anyone to fight with.

Ever played the new Virtua Fighter?

Me neither!

[CosmicMaher]

My favorite fighting game is jojo's bizarre adventure. I'd say what I need in a fighter is clear differentiation between a good and bad player, an experienced and inexperienced player, which is why I'm not as fond of the smash bros series. I also don't like having characters be clones, I like each fighter to have a distinctly different playstyle.

[shig]

I'd say what I need in a fighter is clear differentiation between a good and bad player, an experienced and inexperienced player, which is why I'm not as fond of the smash bros series.

An experient player will kick the crap out of any newbie/button masher with ease on SSB. The skill differences are actually pretty evident in that game.

[CosmicMaher]

I wouldn't say the difference is as clear in comparison to other fighters, especially with the inclusion of the smash orbs or whatever those things are called.

[powly]

That's why he said just "SSB", not "SSBB".

I've never had the pleasure of playing SSB but I've loved SSBM for years, one of the best games I have.

[shig]

Are you sure it's not just a case of you not liking the game?

Seriously, it's often the best player who gets the good items anyways, smash balls included. And even then, final smashes aren't that hard to dodge or survive.

Although the random chance items ARE a bit stronger in Brawl than they were in Melee or the N64 one.

[kyn]

Ever played the new Virtua Fighter?

Me neither!

No, but I wish. I used to play all the Virtua Fighter games on the Saturn back in the day.
Even the VF Kids

[HöllenKobold]

I actually don't like SSB because of how loose the combat is. As in, jumping around everywhere. I like my fighting games to have more grounded combat. Like Bushido Blade.

Also, I just never liked SSB's controls for some reason. I hate command moves because I always mess up with them which is especially bad when the command moves for one button are completely different from each other.

[s0]

Without really having read any of the other replies:

I hate having to memorize tons of combos. I prefer the style of Street Fighter where it's just a few moves per character and you have to use them tactically and skillfully in order to win. I like SSB too, but for me that's a different category. Whereas playing games like Street Figher or Tekken is an "art" in itself, much like playing difficult platformers or bullet hell shmups, SSB is pure, simple fun (there's nothing wrong with that of course). I know there are people who are really, really good at it, but still...

I think fighting games are the least fun to play online somehow, you have to have a "real-life" opponent sitting beside you on a couch (or standing beside you in front of an arcade machine) to get the right "feeling". At least that's the way it is for me.

Also, on a side note, I always thought Mortal Kombat sucked. If it wasn't for the dumb notoriety, I think it would be just another obscure, mediocre arcade fighter like there were tons in the 90's. I admit, the fatalities are kinda hilarious in a stupid, juvenile way but the actual gameplay has nothing on other classics like Street Fighter 2.

[gimymblert]

I like smash bros a lot, it is fairly easy to demonstrate that it is the most complete and nuance fighting game ever made with objective argument, and generally it's easy to calm down more subjective argument with good old "advanced techniques" video series, pinning down every pseudo rational argument to an clear example.

Where smash bros failed however is on the "feel" side of argument.

• It's hard for some to take the game seriously or to identify with pikachu and co
  The connect feel of hit is loose
  The combat is not grounded enough
  Too much chasing and dodge fest
  Too much hazard
  Break old fighting game habit
  No "easy" complex button sequence to pull out (and the mastery feels
  No builds in combo
  Too much timing
  Positioning is too important and complex
  Too much risk driven
  No turtle strategie allowed
  Ring out instead of damage base
  Comeback "too easy"
  Items

yep that's still a lot
Me would want closer combat, reduce movement range, better hit connect... like indie brawl 

For me who played the game in melee only on 4 players "sudden death" with high frequency item (reduce to pokeball actually) on poke stadium (dynamic level), have a very different experience than most people about the game, something like playing a bullet hell game. We played competitively, but it was no more the same game, and still it had plenty depth (more positioning, more reading the entire field, more taking advantage of field, more pushing risk, more item trajectory cornering and reverse catching). It could pass one minute without one of us getting one it, and items and hazard where low on the hit frequency despite epic filled screen, you feel like neo in the matrix. Doing a regular match just look slow and easy. Smash bros feels like high paced chess.

The real easy fighting game are the traditional one, they focus less on reading (all you need is to read the single opponent mind, not a whole situation with player, hazard and level). You only need to practice the input "alone" to be sure you can pull them out and then it's a glorify "paper, rock scissor" mix with ddr like gameplay.

The worst famous offender in the "be sure you don't mess the buttons sequences" game play is SFIV and is ultra bar. I play cammy, i can beat the opponent entire life bar (i'm looking at you akuma's bitch  ) just to get my half full down with teh single move the opponent actually care learning to place: ULTRA. Seriously ultra is dumb, get hit then win! I only play fighting game with friends and learn everything in match fairly without "wait a seek my move", i don't have time to close myself in an empty room to practice impossible move (o barely do the requirement for an ultra), still i get the upper hand just to see the opponent turtle to place his ultra. As Cammy is a close combat low mid tier character and those bastard only take top tier projectile character (Sagat i'm looking at you cheap bastard) it really steal my satisfaction to dominate just to be crush with a cheap powerful move. There is very little adaptation or invention, and tactics is reduce to a very few number of parameter easy to track and it is really down to who ever have the best reflex or timing, or on same level skills reading the glorified paper, scisor, rock of the opponent mind. It does look good and feel awesome (daigo vs justin evo 2k4 anyone? if you don't know look for awesome:

) but there is really much going one except pure and simple motor skills.

We need a mix between the feeling of old traditional fighting game and the complexity and simplicity of smash bros.

[shig]

The combat is not grounded enough
Too much chasing and dodge fest
Too much hazard
Break old fighting game habit
No "easy" complex button sequence to pull out (and the mastery feels
No builds in combo
Too much timing
Positioning is too important and complex
Too much risk driven
No turtle strategie allowed
Comeback "too easy"
Items

It's weird that you say these are the bad points of SSB when I think this is exactly what makes SSB so awesome.

The connect feel of hit is loose

I agree with this entirely when it comes to Meelee and Brawl. But not the original SSB. Also, in Meelee and Brawl, there are just too many special effects and sparkles and glows and explosions with every attack.

[jwk5]

When it is against a human opponent it is all about the moves and what kind of strategies can be created from them. I really like Samurai Showdown 5 Special and The Last Blade 2 for this reason because the different defensive options they both bring to the table make the fights break out into an almost acrobatic dance of swordplay. Street Fighter 2, the Alpha Series, Street Fighter 3, etc. were killer because the moves had an almost Chess-like precision to their tactical usage. Super Smash Bros. and Marvel vs. Capcom place a lot of emphasis on mobility which creates a much different experience and set of strategies than a lot of fighting games out there. Virtua Fighter 4 and above is practically a game for masochists with all the subtle complexities it takes to really master its mechanics, but when you see two pro players going at it it's a thing of beauty. Dead or Alive is just plain fun, despite its reversals being a bit spammy (all the jiggle effects help make up for it, though).

When it comes to just playing against the computer, it is all about the characters. I absolutely love the Soul Calibur games for this reason. They tend to go above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to giving you background information on the characters and letting you really experience what they are all about. A lot of times I will play through a fighting game with every character just to see all the different endings, something the Tekken series has always kept me hooked with. Then you have series like Samurai Showdown, The Last Blade, Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Guilty Gears, etc. where the characters are so interesting it is fun to play them just to check out their animations and see all the cool things they can do. It is nice how you can customize your characters in the later Soul Calibur, Tekken, and Virtua Fighter games too. The costume collecting in the Dead or Alive games was also a nice feature, and kept me playing the short single player story mode over and over just to see how many different costumes there were (there was like 103 or something ridiculous like that in DO4).

If I had to nail down a list of my top 5 favorite fighting game series of all time, it would probably look like this:
(1) Samurai Showdown
(2) Soul Edge / Soul Calibur
(3) Street Fighter
(4) The Last Blade
(5) The King of Fighters

[gimymblert]

It's weird that you say these are the bad points of SSB when I think this is exactly what makes SSB so awesome.

I'm not saying their bad point, i'm saying that's points you can't rationally argue with haters, it's down to tastes.

Hater tend to turtle around the fact that smash is not nearly as complex as a traditional fighting game, they are absolutely wrong on that point, it can be argue.

[CosmicMaher]

I think my biggest beef with SSB is that it seems really unfocused. Stuff is happening all over the place, like the smash orbs and items, that it's hard to have much of a classical timing fight of skill instead of just jumping around a lot trying to get items. I understand it is very competitive, not saying it isn't, but there's a lot of stuff I dislike about it. Nothing BAD about it, as the previous poster said, it's mostly a matter of taste.

Also, clone characters. That is dumb in every fighter.

[gimymblert]

I think my biggest beef with SSB is that it seems really unfocused. Stuff is happening all over the place, like the smash orbs and items, that it's hard to have much of a classical timing fight of skill instead of just jumping around a lot trying to get items. I understand it is very competitive, not saying it isn't, but there's a lot of stuff I dislike about it. Nothing BAD about it, as the previous poster said, it's mostly a matter of taste.

Also, clone characters. That is dumb in every fighter.

You can disable items and choose more focused stage

However that would be the same, we need to GET it to gent into it first.

Before smash bros the fighting game world was pretty cohesive and since everybody followed the same formula (with enough variation) it was easy to navigate.

Smash did shatter this cohesion and set a new way to see fighting game... pretty much like mario kart is barely a racer for purist and spawn the "kart" catégory...

I'm waiting to see nintendo's take on FPS