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[Melly]

My GOD, you have no idea how hard it was for me to not just post a reaction image here.

Hey, you're getting better!

Your text is more amusing to read anyway.

[deathtotheweird]

But thank you, this forum is hilarious.  I will shuck some more hilarity out of these idiots when Anarkex is back on. 

This isn't your personal make fun of people you disagree with forum, take your shenanigans elsewhere you childish fuck.

[Anarkex]

Allen, I'm pretty sure he was talking about the notgames forums. You know, the one he was responding to in the post.

[deathtotheweird]

I am aware of that fact. I think it's silly and childish of him to post and rant and mock about another forum. Really immature, very annoying, and adds nothing intelligent to the conversation. Anti-forum behaviour that doesn't quite belong here. Go to icycalm's forum if you want nothing to do but bash other people all day.

[Farmergnome]

Is this really productive?  TOT has more to there name than most people on this forum, reguardless if you like their games/blog/etc or what, indies should be grouping together, not tearing each other apart.  Dont hate on TOT just because they are doin there own thing and doing it good, sheesh

[PGGB]

I played the first half hour or so of Portal. I had fun. And then I was confronted with a puzzle that I couldn’t solve. This puzzle had like automatic gun turrets, I believe. And I guess I died. I went back to the game a few times in subsequent days. I must have spent over an hour trying to figure out the puzzle. It was not fun. I gave up.

This just makes him look stupid. No matter what he says, he's a gamer. He has a history of playing games and he wants us to believe that he played Portal for half an hour and got stuck for over an hour before quitting the game?
Portal doesn't even get really hard... ever?! For someone who isn't used to games, sure. But even they won't have this much of a problem since it's basically just a big tutorial. Valve is pretty much the last company he can complain about for getting stuck...

Is this really productive?  TOT has more to there name than most people on this forum, reguardless if you like their games/blog/etc or what, indies should be grouping together, not tearing each other apart.  Dont hate on TOT just because they are doin there own thing and doing it good, sheesh

Most of the discussion isn't about what ToT are doing, it's more about how they're representing it and how they are (seemingly) looking down on everything and everyone else.

[The Monster King]

yeah the angry dick guys are exaggerating a bit (here by angry dick guys i mean AshfordPride and Anarkex) but i still agree with one of the core parts of what they're saying which is they sound like pretentious hipster douchebags even if, as cactus said, this was for a presentation

but if they really are bending over and catering for a specific audience then they're no better than what they're no better than those they deplore

otherwise if they really believe that they are the ones making the real games which are not games and that videogames are not art and they hate confrontations where they can lose then they're just a bunch of pussies i guess

regardless i still encourage thinking like they do when it comes to actually making games, ive yet to try any of them but their limitations and attempts to be really different from the norm is definitely nice!! I just wish they would think more about what their games have instead of what they don't have, while it's cool to think about what you can do different i think that artificial limitations can, surprisingly, limit your potential!! and that it's cool to think from a positive perspective, even sometimes in their case where it looks like most of their games deal with pretty negative issues.

out of all their games endless forest is the one that appeals the most to me because it seems calming and charming and cool for people interactions

however one thing may possibly earn them the i-should-punch-your-face Monster King award and that's that damn fuckin pac man pie chart which is the douchiest hipster bullshit i have seen in my life

i pray (to things with a lot of tentacles and some giant robots that is who i pray to) that they did this ironically and they dont actually believe that it was clever and representative
and in my strange and sacrifice-involving prayer i hope that they're actually having a laugh at the people enjoying their showthing and thinking its clever

oh im not sure if that Samyn guy was related to Tale of Tales because reading 9 pages was tough bricks but he sounds like the biggest pussy (as in scaredy cat meow)
what a challenge oh no not a ch-ch-challenge.........
i mean if you don't like games why do you play them

[Jonas Kyratzes]

really noticed this today as I entered "Stalker" into YouTube's search field. Did I get clips from the masterpiece by Tarkovsky? No! I got trailers and clips from a game based on it... It involved gun-wielding zombies, constant gunfires and military helicopters. Have you really no respect for the source material whatsoever?

The masterpiece by Tarkovsky? You mean the one which is itself a very loose adaptation of Roadside Picnic by Arkady and Boris Strugatsky? Granted, with a screenplay by the original authors, but still... hypocrisy much? Stalker the movie has almost nothing in common with the book; STALKER the game is actually much closer to the real source material - so who has respect for what, now?

Also: just how arrogant do you have to be to make all these claims about a game without having played it? STALKER, despite being quite difficult, accomplishes so much more in terms of storytelling and atmosphere than ToT ever did. It's not without flaws, but it is a work of art in its own right.

This is what I mean by illiteracy.

[Gnarf]

Is this really productive?  TOT has more to there name than most people on this forum, reguardless if you like their games/blog/etc or what, indies should be grouping together, not tearing each other apart.  Dont hate on TOT just because they are doin there own thing and doing it good, sheesh

Listen to yourself, man! We should approve of things we do not like, and just group together with people because whatever? Let mob-mentality stomp out any differing opinions?

And why does it always have to be about everyone's tone of voice? Someone criticizes ToT and then there's this deluge of you shouldn't make fun, not mock, not use sarcasm and exaggerations, less caps, no pictures, no rude gestures or offensive words. Nearest anyone gets to the topic is mumbling something about how ToT is allowed to do whatever. But then that's still not very close.

I played the first half hour or so of Portal. I had fun. And then I was confronted with a puzzle that I couldn’t solve. This puzzle had like automatic gun turrets, I believe. And I guess I died. I went back to the game a few times in subsequent days. I must have spent over an hour trying to figure out the puzzle. It was not fun. I gave up.

This just makes him look stupid. No matter what he says, he's a gamer. He has a history of playing games and he wants us to believe that he played Portal for half an hour and got stuck for over an hour before quitting the game?
Portal doesn't even get really hard... ever?! For someone who isn't used to games, sure. But even they won't have this much of a problem since it's basically just a big tutorial. Valve is pretty much the last company he can complain about for getting stuck...

Yeah. It's funny that he complains about linearity in that other post someone linked. Games are horrible because you are not guaranteed to get the desired outcome every goddamn time and also they are too linear.

Also, it's really too bad that he didn't use some multiplayer thing for his example. Why oh why do the worst players lose and the best players win?

[Farmergnome]

Is this really productive?  TOT has more to there name than most people on this forum, reguardless if you like their games/blog/etc or what, indies should be grouping together, not tearing each other apart.  Dont hate on TOT just because they are doin there own thing and doing it good, sheesh

Listen to yourself, man! We should approve of things we do not like, and just group together with people because whatever? Let mob-mentality stomp out any differing opinions?

And why does it always have to be about everyone's tone of voice? Someone criticizes ToT and then there's this deluge of you shouldn't make fun, not mock, not use sarcasm and exaggerations, less caps, no pictures, no rude gestures or offensive words. Nearest anyone gets to the topic is mumbling something about how ToT is allowed to do whatever. But then that's still not very close.

I think you missed the point, "who cares" is my angle, followed shortly by "back to making games".  Because drama like what TOT's opinions on games are doesn't mean shit because their games stand up by themselves, because they have sucessfully made some decent, interesting titles.  Who cares how they reach those goals so long as the end product is good.

[bento_smile]

I dunno... how they reach a goal is important in a way. I find it difficult to enjoy their games because of all the surrounding hyperbole. So while the games may stand on their own, their knees are being chewed through by presentations like the one in the first post.

[Gnarf]

I think you missed the point, "who cares" is my angle, followed shortly by "back to making games".  Because drama like what TOT's opinions on games are doesn't mean shit because their games stand up by themselves, because they have sucessfully made some decent, interesting titles.  Who cares how they reach those goals so long as the end product is good.

You'll have to forgive an old man for his faltering mental capabilities. For a brief moment there, a few seconds of succumbing to dementia, I hallucinated some bizarre interpretation of what you posted, and was convinced that you had made some claim about how, regardless of whether they liked the those games, indies should group together. Before this spell had let go of me I had even scribbled some response to these thoughts -- thoughts entirely my own -- rather than anything even remotely close to what you had actually written...

With clarity of mind and reading comprehension as fleeting allies of mine, I will instead say: If your point is just "who cares?", then you might want to consider dropping the "is this really productive?" bit. Because no, posting in this particular thread is not productive at all if you do not care about what this particular thread is about. And from the sound of things, you don't care.

[Farmergnome]

I dunno... how they reach a goal is important in a way. I find it difficult to enjoy their games because of all the surrounding hyperbole. So while the games may stand on their own, their knees are being chewed through by presentations like the one in the first post.

Fair enough bro, I find it facinating that people care so much about this stuff, I just assumed its part of the process they go through to make the sort of bizzare games/notgames that they do, totally understand that it could be offputting to some though.

With clarity of mind and reading comprehension as fleeting allies of mine, I will instead say: If your point is just "who cares?", then you might want to consider dropping the "is this really productive?" bit. Because no, posting in this particular thread is not productive at all if you do not care about what this particular thread is about. And from the sound of things, you don't care.

Is it productive is like, shouldn't we be doing something better than hating?  Like making games maybe? Speaking of that I have one to finish. have fun.

[Nate Kling]

It's really no use arguing. The few hostile vocal members on this thread really have no intent to do anything other than mock what they don't like.  There were some pretty valid critiques here but they get drown out in all the caps lock writing member's posts.

[deathtotheweird]

I find it difficult to enjoy their games because of all the surrounding hyperbole.

I find this incredibly stupid. Since when does this matter? Why should your enjoyment of a piece of work hinge on an outside force? That seems very childish to me.

If I found out that John Carmack secretly cooked and ate kids he stole from a local orphanage while developing Quake II, it would not stop me from enjoying that game.

I often don't agree with what they say, but I don't let it influence how I enjoy their work.

[AshfordPride]

It's really no use arguing. The few hostile vocal members on this thread really have no intent to do anything other than mock what they don't like.  There were some pretty valid critiques here but they get drown out in all the caps lock writing member's posts.

Would you prefer I just politely dismiss what they have to say for some silly reason?  Because your passive-aggressive dissent towards SOMEONE IN THIS THREAD NOT NAMING ANY NAMES is getting a little on my nerves.  You know what it's like to spend ten minutes typing something up only to have someone (Someone, not you, maybe you.  Maybe not even someone in this thread.  Maybe I'm talking hypothetically) comes in and tells you that silly squabbling will never get us anywhere!  

What do you guys want me to do?  Should I DDOS the nongames forum?  Punch the ToT crew in the face?  Is that the sort of shit that will get things done?  

Christ, you guys need to stop acting like I'm a complete douche to everyone all the time.  I like to think that I am participating in this forum in a meaningful and noteworthy manner.

And maybe some other people (Not you.  Maybe you.  Perhaps I'm talking about my mother reading this over my shoulder gently patting my shoulder and telling me that my father would be proud) enjoy reading what I have to say, even if it's just pointing out how stupid people can be about video games.

Really immature, very annoying, and adds nothing intelligent to the conversation.

Yeah man, I completely agree!  Every post on the nongames forum can be summed up exactly like that, am I right?  I mean, they're just such comeplete f-...  Oooooooooooh, you meant me.

Well, y'see guys, we've reached Stage 3 of every thread I've ever posted in here.  You may think it extraordinarily narcissistic to have made stages to describe my own conversations, but please hold those comments, because that's stage 4.  Stage 3 is when you guys just tell me to leave.  Just tell me that I'm a terrible person.  That I'm worthless.  That I'm not doing anything that matters.  And then it becomes almost impossible to talk about video games anymore.  And it's not my fault, it's yours.  

Why would you make a short forum post to just tell me that, basically, you don't like me?  That's extraordinarily rude!  Nate, why would you even post something like this?  In fact Nate, this thread is entirely YOUR fault.  Your backseat moderation (or frontseat, I honestly don't know who's a mod around here other than Melly...) is what made me write that big first post in the first place.  

BUT ITS NO USE ARGUING

LETS ALL JUST LIE DOWN, CROSS OUR ARMS, AND AWAIT THE EMBRACE OF DEATH

BECAUSE EVERYTHING WE DO IS USELESS

ALL WE ARE IS DUST IN THE WIND

DUST IN THE WIND

indies should be grouping together, not tearing each other apart.

I can imagine no greater suffocation for a community than complete and total agreement.  I don't care if you're Bob Kotick or just Bob, if you say something bad, make something bad, or are just incredibly stupid for the sake and health of the community you need to be discouraged.  Criticism, man!  It's important!  It's important that art needs to weather a storm of discontent and scornful gazes so that IT MEANS SOMETHING when they manage to do something that is so great, so powerful, so beautiful and wonderfully built that justifies all this shit we had to deal with!  Or we could just sit around in our berets, and snap our fingers repeatedly at how groovy all these new games are.  The second a community starts thinking everything they're producing is god's gift to man is the second they begin producing unspeakably terrible shit like ToT's games.

Also, it's really too bad that he didn't use some multiplayer thing for his example. Why oh why do the worst players lose and the best players win?

It sounds like ToT would be big on communism. Or not even communism.  Like, imagine the worst, most uninformed view of communism that a PSA movie from 1950's America could possibly portray.  Where everyone is just toiling for the same meager shit because they have this lofty, dangerous ideal and because they just can't seem to understand how glorious capitalistic people like Lil' Billy over here truly are!  That's what ToT wants, this horrible video game version of a parody of communism, where everyone gets one sheet of toilet paper that they have to wait in line all day for.

But hey, it has a nice floral print on it.

Meanwhile, in the US of A, jetskis and big-breasted women for everyone!

regardless i still encourage thinking like they do when it comes to actually making games, ive yet to try any of them but their limitations and attempts to be really different from the norm is definitely nice!!

But who doesn't want this?  You think anyone consciously walks into Gamestop and says "I sure hope I can find a game exactly like Modern Warfare 2 to play until I can find a game that's even more better at mimicking it."  Of course not!  I really get sick when people make such a fuss about how the industry is stagnating.  How many good games can a savvy gamer really consume?  I probably buy one a month myself, maybe a few cheap ones.  And they're great!  I've been playing plenty of fantastic, new, exciting games my entire life?  

You can ask for something new and different to flood the market, because then THAT becomes the norm that you're trying to escape from!  I loved Bayonetta, but does anyone really want to walk into a video game store and see dozens of lanky, bootylicious babes in third-person action games?  Oh boy, another game where you play as some hot chick using an arsenal of spells and acrobatics to defeat the occult...  Sigh.

[bento_smile]

I find it difficult to enjoy their games because of all the surrounding hyperbole.

I find this incredibly stupid. Since when does this matter? Why should your enjoyment of a piece of work hinge on an outside force? That seems very childish to me.

It's the way their games are marketed though. Maybe you find it stupid, or whatever, but the marketing is working to the point where I don't feel the need to play their games anymore. You've never been put off by an annoying/insulting ad?

And what the hell, why does that warrant being called childish?

[Jonas Kyratzes]

And what the hell, why does that warrant being called childish?

I don't think it does, myself. While the authorial context of a work isn't everything, and flawed people have produced great art, it's also entirely human to consider the context when evaluating the work.

I must say, I don't understand why so many people are attacking the posters who voice their disagreement with ToT, when the Over Games presentation aggressively dismisses and devalues so much of the world and history of computer gaming. Why can ToT say "you are all crap" and other game designers are not allowed to say "I think not"?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

"I must say, I don't understand why so many people are attacking the posters who voice their disagreement with ToT"

nobody is attacking those voicing disagreement with ToT. we're attacking those who are virulently mocking / attacking ToT in a disrespectful manner. and the reason is because some feel that fellow developers should be treated with respect, regardless of whether you like their games or not or agree with their game design philosophy or not, or even whether they treat other developers respectfully or not; threads like this full of ToT hate just make the tigsource forums look bad

but it's almost universally non-devs attacking ToT here anyway -- besides bento_smile i guess, and his/her attacks on ToT aren't very virulent anyway compared to ashford pride and gnarf and anarkex

"I like to think that I am participating in this forum in a meaningful and noteworthy manner."

[deathtotheweird]

I find it difficult to enjoy their games because of all the surrounding hyperbole.

I find this incredibly stupid. Since when does this matter? Why should your enjoyment of a piece of work hinge on an outside force? That seems very childish to me.

It's the way their games are marketed though. Maybe you find it stupid, or whatever, but the marketing is working to the point where I don't feel the need to play their games anymore. You've never been put off by an annoying/insulting ad?

And what the hell, why does that warrant being called childish?

Sure I've been put off by annoying ads, but that still doesn't effect how I feel about the product after I've actually tried it. The ads for Inception made it look like a pretty generic action movie and I was apprehensive about watching it, then I watched it and enjoyed it because it wasn't actually a generic action film. I imagine if I responded like you towards the preview, I would go see the movie, but still feel disgruntled because the ad was so shitty and generic. (terrible analogy but it kinda makes sense). Perhaps you could have worded your sentence better, but when reading it that's what I thought you were saying.

It just sounds like you are judging the game based on how they market it rather than the game itself, which is why I said it sounds childish to me.