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[Jared C]

Thanks everyone.

So I tried to wrap my head around C++... I have to agree, it's pretty hard to learn.  And I don't think I really got this across, but right now I'm looking for a temporary fix.  Right now, I really know no one my age that can code crap (that I can really rely on).  I'm not at all looking to make coding a career, just something I can use to make games right now.  I'm loving design far too much! 

I just downloaded Mono, so I'll try to start learning, the apparently easier, C#.

Gold Cray @ What's visual basic, exactly?  I might look into that, too.

[Ivan]

I would advise to stay away from Visual Basic. Just my personal opinion.

[Gold Cray]

I imagine it's easier to make games in C++ than in VB. VB is really just for making simple windows gui things.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I don't know of a single good game made in visual basic -- doesn't mean they don't exist, but usually there's a correlation between how many good games are made in a language and how good that language is for games.

[hexageek]

Could I suggest stopping this thread now? It is no longer helpful to the OP and well on the way into Holy War territory (especially the old trite "C++ vs. Java" one, which no one in the industry cares about any more).

as long as people makes good arguments I don't see why we have to close the thread. So far it's been a very civilized conversation and I don't see your point.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Expanding on my point about the number of good games made in a language being important, I believe around 90% of indie games are made in one of these: C++, Game Maker, MMF, RPGMaker XP, Blitz3D/BlitzBasic, Flash. There are a few games here and there in other languages, but those account for the large bulk of them. Unity is also up and coming, with more indie games being made in it. I've also seen a few Java games and a few Python games, but those generally didn't impress me. So I think any of those would be good. As long as you pick one of those and stick to it, you can make great games.

Of those, C++ is the hardest, and the engines (GM, MMF, RPGMaker) are the easiest. Flash is somewhere in between. I haven't used Blitz so I've no idea how easy it is or how it works.

My own path was QBASIC (age 14) -> C (age 15) -> hamsterpseak (age 19) -> Game Maker (age 25) -> Flash (age 30), but if I had it all over to do again I'd have gone: modding/level-editing -> Game Maker -> Flash -> C++

[hexageek]

... with Processing to get the hang of coding? I haven't tried it myself, but I hear it's very intuitive.

wow! Processing looks incredible! Are there any games made with it? I would like to try some.
Looking at the examples, it looks like there is not much it can't handle for a decent 2D game -although it's not designed for game development-

[mirosurabu]

I was going to suggest you Construct, but then I saw you want a Mac-friendly development tool.

C++ is not the right option if your primary goal is game design. Learning C++ involves learning C++ syntax, memory management, various algorithmic structures, debugging, different programming paradigms etc. And you can even be mislead into believing that optimization-first route is the right one (as I was) and spend too much time optimizing everything when you don't need to.

I don't know of a single good game made in visual basic

Chart Wars 3 was a decent idea but the implementation was less decent. The game did very well as freeware game, though.

There are few commercial VB games I am aware of - Bestseller and Hollywood Mogul 3.

[Mikademus]

What's visual basic, exactly?  I might look into that, too.

Don't. Why, you ask? Well, I'll let Mr. Edsger W. Dijkstra answer for me (from Selected Writings on Computing):

It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

And that was before Microsoft made BASIC their bitch. Be afraid, be very afraid...

[David Pittman]

I haven't touched VB in years, but Visual Basic .NET should be capable of most everything C# is, including managed Direct3D. I can't think of a compelling reason to recommend it over C# other than maybe a simpler syntax for beginners, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand either.

[Gold Cray]

Mr. Dijkstra has been wrong in the past (specifically 1975):

FORTRAN, 'the infantile disorder', by now nearly 20 years old, is hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today: it is now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use.

Unless you count a short time playing with if statements in FORTRAN, I had some exposure to VB before every learning to program and I turn out just fine.

[Ishi]

I spent years in DarkBasic (shudder) and BlitzBasic. Don't think I'm a terrible coder now. In terms of game coding they definitely helped me to learn, especially when I only had occasional dial-up internet so I was mostly self taught, but really if you can learn to make global variables and functions in them, you can do the same in C++ (or indeed any language).

[Dacke]

For me programming is like... super fun. I recommend choosing a language that gives you what you need and want. As long as you have fun programming you will get generally better, no matter the language.

If you don't know how to program it's probably a great idea to start with something drag-and-drop based. Some 8 years ago I played around with GameMaker. The games came out really crappy and I couldn't understand how to make things properly in GM (I still don't do). But I got a grasp of many basic programming concepts and got fast rewards for it.

Today I use Java because it gives me the right-sized building blocks for what I want to do. It gives me properly implemented lists and windows and all sorts of things, but I build all larger things from scratch. (I feel comfortable using the building blocks as I have implemented lists/trees/etc before and know how they work.)

When it comes to learning good programming there are different benefits of different languages. From Assembly which is fun when understanding the inner workings of computers, to C, C++, Java or Python. Personally I value readable code and good structure over hardcore-efficiency, when it comes to bigger projects. If what I've heard is true about Python, it's awesome for learning good coding habits. Leading to some kind of end point:

Masna: If you want to do fun stuff fast: use something like GameMaker. If you want to learn "standard" programming (but still get going fast) use Python. No matter what you choose, however, you will end up with skills that will work in pretty much any language.

[Jared C]

Thanks Dacke. 

I just checked the GM site.  It seems its all for PC, though.    Is there at least a BETA Mac version?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

There's a beta mac version, yes. I have a copy of it, but it's closed beta right now.

[Dacke]

Oh, dang, forgot the Mac-thing while writing my post!

Personally I dislike game-maker (platform-dependant, home-cooked language, strange design). But it's easy to have fast fun with.. for me mostly becuase I always end up with games with really fun bugs :D. If you just want a quick fix, you can always emulate Windows on your Mac.

If you're willing to make the commitment, learning programming is super fun too. If you want to try it out, making crappy text-based things is always a good start. It's a good way to see if you enjoy the programming-aspects of.. uhm.. programming

[Jared C]

I have no clue how to emulate, but I did find, like GM 4.0 for Mac.  I'll play around with that for a little bit and see if I like it. =)

EDIT:  The version is so old and so buggy I can barely do anything with it!  I should probably just stop bitching and learn a language now.  I guess I'll just continue with Mono.  It seems like a pretty professional coding device.

[Mikademus]

I spent years in DarkBasic (shudder) and BlitzBasic. Don't think I'm a terrible coder now. In terms of game coding they definitely helped me to learn, especially when I only had occasional dial-up internet so I was mostly self taught, but really if you can learn to make global variables and functions in them, you can do the same in C++ (or indeed any language).

I don't understand what you're saying, are you promoting functions-and-globals as a good programming style, or are you saying you can make an ugly mess in any language? I also started with BASIC (and Pascal), and when looking back at my old Java and C++ source now I can see how much those languages damaged me.

For me programming is like... super fun. I recommend choosing a language that gives you what you need and want. As long as you have fun programming you will get generally better, no matter the language.

Sorry, not everyone can be good programmers, no matter how hard they try (this corresponds to my experiences and observations as well, having taught programming as well as worked with it. However, for some interesting discussion and critique of this paper by Alan Kay, see here).

[rogerlevy]

Thanks Dacke. 

I just checked the GM site.  It seems its all for PC, though.    Is there at least a BETA Mac version?

If you have a Mac why don't you try Unity?  Was originally made on the Mac.  It supports C# or JavaScript (both languages I'd endorse) and a sort-of-Python (?) which is bound to be slow (anyone correct me) but I think some people love Python.

[Morre]

It's really not. C++'s advantages are not only its speed. In fact, that's really the least of its advantages. There are a million other reasons why you should use it. Multiple inheritance, templating, portability, library availability and ability to use any other language of your choice for scripting are just some of them.

Hah, I can't believe you used multiple inheritance as the primary argument for C++. Shame on you!

Templating can be more or less simulated in Java with generics, although not entirely. And while I do admit there's a few things missing in Java (you can't take functions as parameters, for one thing), I do think it gives you about the same level of freedom as C++. As for the other things; there are plenty of libraries to allow scripting for Java as well, and library availability is good.

I'm not saying Java is better than C++ for everything - I'm just saying that C++ isn't better for everything either. There are plenty of options, and saying that C++ is what will give you freedom in the end and that you *will* move towards it is not something I approve of.

Both Java and C++ are probably more complicated than needed for your first language though. I believe something like Python or ActionScript3 wouldn't be such a bad choice. Or even more high-level tools such as Game Maker - although I haven't used it.