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[Zaphos]

ff6 also starts you off with a lot of spells, recall the magitek elite stuff before "??? girl" finds the crystal thingy and explodes.

[SirNiko]

FF6 doesn't introduce the Magic System until almost 1/4 of the way through the game, though. If it was an IGF entry I would suggest having part of the entry skip ahead to after Zozo to show off how you can use Espers to develop your characters. That, or screw with the demo to start in Narshe but give the characters espers anyway just so you can play with them.

[Zaphos]

Hmm, if we're being cynical about IGF judges I would say rather just don't submit an RPG to IGF; they never get recognition even if they're "Barkley: Shut Up and Jam Gaiden" (which is basically a classic on the level of ff6, search your feelings you know it is true)

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@montoli - when i wrote that i was thinking more of the actual start of the game, not the cinematic intro. in other words, after you land on the planet with your spaceship, it's slow for a while, even if the first 5 minutes is fast

same thing with ff6; the magitech armor have a list of fun abilities to try out, but after that it's pretty slow for a while (the game doesn't really get "fun" for me until the three parties are split up and you can choose between them: sabin/cyan/gau, edgar/terra/bannon, and locke/celes)

[Zaphos]

@montoli - when i wrote that i was thinking more of the actual start of the game, not the cinematic intro. in other words, after you land on the planet with your spaceship, it's slow for a while, even if the first 5 minutes is fast

Okay, but the fast first five minutes was exactly what I thought Rich M. Games was talking about when he said "the first five-ten minutes should strive to excite players to reach that depth" ... it's the 'teaser of things to come' design strategy, which Metroid games love to do.  It's not about instantly giving the player everything, just about giving the player an enticing hint of what's to come.

[Montoli]

@montoli - when i wrote that i was thinking more of the actual start of the game, not the cinematic intro. in other words, after you land on the planet with your spaceship, it's slow for a while, even if the first 5 minutes is fast

same thing with ff6; the magitech armor have a list of fun abilities to try out, but after that it's pretty slow for a while (the game doesn't really get "fun" for me until the three parties are split up and you can choose between them: sabin/cyan/gau, edgar/terra/bannon, and locke/celes)

Well, (as is probably obvious at this point) that's not what most people think when they talk about the start of Super Metroid.  And it's kind of a weird position for you to take.  I mean, paraphrased (and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my reading) it sounds like you're saying "Super Metroid built up gradually over time, and had a pretty slow start, if you don't count the fast-paced, exciting set piece that it hit you with immediately after you start a new game..."

I mean, with enough selective qualifiers you can justify any claim about anything. (Xenogears was pretty much all action and no story, if you don't count the parts where it had long, unskippable cutscenes...)

So yeah.  I think Super Metroid is not really a good example for the point you're trying to make here.  (And note, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your point - just your choice of examples to support it.)

[RichMakeGame!]

I'd like to add Paul that I agree with the main sentiment of your post about not changing the game *just* for the sake of making it IGF friendly. My only point was that some changes that you could make to improve it's chances might also be positives for a game in general.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i guess what people consider the start of a game varies a lot. for instance, with lufia, i consider the start of the game when you get control over the main character, not the intro part where you play a super-powerful party from 100 years ago. likewise, with fallout 2, i consider the game started after that boring tutorial cave, not during it

but if you don't like the super metroid example, about about metroid for nes? it didn't have that type of cinematic intro

[The Monster King]

i consider the game starts the moment you have defeated the final boss. my game lasts 30 seconds but there is a pretty fun 6 hour intro

[ink.inc]

gam start when u turn it on

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

gam start when u turn it on

yeah but what about those people who are like 'hurry up dum logo, hurry up dum cinema, i want to start the gam'

[ANtY]

gam start when u turn it on

yeah but what about those people who are like 'hurry up dum logo, hurry up dum cinema, i want to start the gam'

Fuck them 

[deathtotheweird]

so..how about dat igf.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

but if you don't like the super metroid example, about about metroid for nes? it didn't have that type of cinematic intro

You can't argue that lacking an entertaining intro makes the game better though.

Point is better intro = better game in 99% of cases

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

You can't argue that lacking an entertaining intro makes the game better though.

Point is better intro = better game in 99% of cases

of course, but i'm thinking in terms of time investment. in other words, you could spend one month making a good intro, or one month adding more to the main game (more levels, areas, weapons, types of enemies, whatever). i think that in a lot of cases that it's more worth spending time on those parts of the game than the intro, even tho the intro is important to the first impression

so it's not whether a good intro makes the game better or worse. it's whether the intro makes the game better than adding 10 more levels or 10 new enemy types or a new weapon or a new boss would. time isn't infinite, especially for indies

nobody is saying 'make the beginning of the game as boring as possible, it'll make the game better', they're just questioning whether it's a good use of time to focus so much on the first impression that you neglect the core parts of a game (and a lot of the games that win prizes did exactly that -- they focused on a good short impression, but had no game otherwise, and are still not finished 2, 3, 4 years later)

[SirNiko]

I think the discussion is getting mixed up. Daniel's initial post did not suggest your final retail game should be short, or immediately start with a flashy introduction - he meant that the version you submit to the IGF judging should get to the core, fun part of the game as quickly as possible. If the game takes a while to get into, you may need to be prepared to demonstrate the good stuff early. eg, if you were going to submit Spacechem, be prepared to drop some of the more complex later levels on the judge earlier than normal to show how the humble beginnings flesh out 10 hours later.

When you release the final retail version you can arrange things so there is a slow build up to the meat of the game.

This is also good advice in general for making a game - start by making the most interesting parts of the game first. It doesn't do you any good if you get a great framework in place only to discover that the main elements of your game are broken or boring.

[Triplefox]

Played with color palette a little last night. Will be doing some graphics work over the next week...

On the subject of "exciting intro," I actually iterated into this without even considering it as an "IGF specific" requirement, but because of feedback.

Level 1, iteration 1: Boring and somewhat difficult traditional platforming. I watched as my dad was unable to complete it because of the timing of hitting "jump + movement" needed to make jumps to higher-up platforms near the top of the arc. This is not some special mechanic of the game, just him being the worst platform player I have seen, but it led me to make the arc a tad higher and to do the next version...

Level 1, iteration 2: Level became more trivial: Jump a little bit, shoot the wall, the end.  However, I sensed that web portal players were skating out after this pedestrian 30 second experience, especially since at that time the game logic was kicking them back to the title after playing each level.

Level 1, iteration 3: Level begins with falling rocks and an explosion and the rocks falling and crushing coal and turning it into diamonds and then you immediately walk out and get the blaster and and and .... Most of the campaign got revised to front-load more introductory elements, and I introduced tutorial messages as you encounter new elements, which helped to  keep the pace a lot higher.

I think I can still do more to pump it up even now, maybe it'll be better by the time the judges get around to looking at the game.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I think the discussion is getting mixed up. Daniel's initial post did not suggest your final retail game should be short, or immediately start with a flashy introduction - he meant that the version you submit to the IGF judging should get to the core, fun part of the game as quickly as possible. If the game takes a while to get into, you may need to be prepared to demonstrate the good stuff early. eg, if you were going to submit Spacechem, be prepared to drop some of the more complex later levels on the judge earlier than normal to show how the humble beginnings flesh out 10 hours later.

i was addressing mattg's earlier point more than daniel's. but also i don't think it's too much to expect a judge to play a game for 10 hours -- they're only assigned, what, something like eight games? and given three months to play them? that's a lot of time. if i were judging a game, i wouldn't even be satisfied with playing the game through once, i'd do so multiple times before evaluating it, because a lot of games you don't really know until you've gone through them with several playthroughs

[RichMakeGame!]

Here's my effort, Pineapple Smash Crew
(clicky)


good luck anyone crunching this weekend!

[Glaiel-Gamer]

so it's not whether a good intro makes the game better or worse. it's whether the intro makes the game better than adding 10 more levels or 10 new enemy types or a new weapon or a new boss would. time isn't infinite, especially for indies

and I'd argue that making a good intro is far easier than making a good boss

also that a good intro is more important than an extra level