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[michaelplzno]

Well fluff, I think with the indies a lot of what they say is behind closed doors. In your glorious view of the world confrontation is a noble pursuit. But interestingly enough, my understanding is that a lot of indie chatter is off the grid so to speak.

Am I personally offended: I mean I left here for many years because sigvatar was being very unpleasant and no one in the community did anything about it. It left me with serious questions as to what the moderators here felt was valuable to the community.

I also am offended that because of the way I post it will take roughly 20 more years before I hit the hidden forums. Which I guess I could be a troll and up those numbers if that was the name of the game here. Is it?

[Lurk]

Lol, what circles? The "Hey let's say offensive shit behind closed doors so on one can call us out on it!" circles?

And again, I'm not saying "lets all sing Kumbaya" but people put a lot of work into the devlogs here and such, shouldn't they get to know what the foundation they are building all that on is made of?

The forums have always tended towards a certain type of elitism; games that were more 'commercial' or casual would not receive the same acclaim as pretentious 'weird for the sake of weird' experiments. But the underlying truth is that there are an awful lot of commercial games and very few competent pretentious games. So it makes sense that the underdog would be the favorite of the majority, but its still a worthwhile debate, because the skillset is different. In a sense, you need to do some cutie casual graphics /gameplay to understand it's not as easy as it looks to do it properly. And you need to make an attempt at a pretentious art game to know it's actually really difficult to pull off something that will be effective.

[fluffrabbit]

I think the name of the game is to post as much as possible as long as you paragraph properly.

[ThemsAllTook]

As you endure the barrage of mild insults and memes, you will grow and change into a better human being for the benefit of all mankind.

It's awfully easy to interpret this as "I assert that it is my right to act like a complete jerk whenever I want, but take no responsibility for anything I say."

Does your vision of growing into a better human being not involve empathy? Seeing through someone else's lens, with sensitivity to a different set of things than what you're personally sensitive to?

Sensitivity is not a weakness to be beaten out of yourself. It's a strength. Art and creativity require allowing yourself to be vulnerable.

Being all bravado all the time sounds horribly isolating. Do you only want to be able to have positive interactions with people who have an emotional shield up at all times? Do you feel like you'd be able to build a strong human connection without ever letting your guard down?

The loudest voices in this conversation don't necessarily reflect the feelings of its readers. Responding to someone who professes an ideology of "if you're offended by what I say, it's your fault" is unappealing. This has a chilling effect on what may be a large group of potential voices and perspectives. Even from a position of relative power as a moderator, participating in this conversation carries personal risk for me. I'm choosing to do it because I think this is important.

[michaelplzno]

@Lurk For me, as a "makes cute commercial games" type, it never felt too warm here but yes I can explain that doing that right is not trivial. (Understatement)

But ya know, we are here, we could make it so its not based on elitism. We could make a new and wondrous system. Just throwing that out there.

[fluffrabbit]

Do you only want to be able to have positive interactions with people who have an emotional shield up at all times?

Yes. I don't like what's underneath unless it's a dramatic performance. You're acting like this is my problem. The way I see it, you have a problem.

[Lurk]

@Lurk For me, as a "makes cute commercial games" type, it never felt too warm here but yes I can explain that doing that right is not trivial. (Understatement)

But ya know, we are here, we could make it so its not based on elitism. We could make a new and wondrous system. Just throwing that out there.

Maybe elitism is not the proper word. I think the majority of people who have a passion for 'indie' games appreciate what is different and weird(and very often unappealing as commercial prospect). It's really hard to sell a personnal experience when most gamers want to shoot something in the face. But I think it needs the occasional down-to-earth poster who pursues the technical skills needed to create a commercial product, so the artsy dev can gain some useful insight while giving something to think about to the technician.
But these cultures will get into heated arguments, hence the moderation team. In the end, the better system is growing whenever we interact with someone who is our total opposite with no hard feelings.
 

[ThemsAllTook]

I don't like what's underneath unless it's a dramatic performance.

That's a fundamental difference, then. I do like what's underneath. It wasn't until I was around 25 or so that I really learned to appreciate people for what they are. Some of the sentiments expressed here could almost have been me 10 or 15 years ago.

I'm not trying to imply that this is a phase I expect anyone else to grow out of, but it was something that happened to me. I'm able to have much more fulfilling interactions with the people I meet now. It was really a life-changing discovery.

[fluffrabbit]

Well, I'm 26 and I have yet to embrace that philosophy. There is enough sentiment in the world that you can get your fill of it just about anywhere. It takes a special kind of quality to avoid that for the long haul. That quality used to be easier to find on the surface web, but certain people have forced it underground.

[Superb Joe]

Well fluff, I think with the indies a lot of what they say is behind closed doors. In your glorious view of the world confrontation is a noble pursuit. But interestingly enough, my understanding is that a lot of indie chatter is off the grid so to speak.

Am I personally offended: I mean I left here for many years because sigvatar was being very unpleasant and no one in the community did anything about it. It left me with serious questions as to what the moderators here felt was valuable to the community.

I also am offended that because of the way I post it will take roughly 20 more years before I hit the hidden forums. Which I guess I could be a troll and up those numbers if that was the name of the game here. Is it?

in all honesty, i agree with you on many things and think that codified rules and values would be a good idea if this were a larger community (ie if this were a high volume general video game place and thus in danger of becoming full of nazis). i think, as is, this place kind of serves different purposes to different people who may be on the same website but are wholly alienated and disconnected from each other and i feel like any attempt to define these things would just be another ignored thread on another ignored board. for the most part, the unwritten "don't be a big shithead" rule works out.

i am one of the people who did something about sigvatr (insofar as i was unpleasant and rude to him) but i don't think that is a positive example.

when i was just a little baby joe, somebody was going mad that i would post successive replies to gain access to the secret forums which i didn't know existed. i have never used them except for when i have posted a good post in a spam bot thread and the mods move them there. they are, again, a completely ignored vestigial sign of something this forum used to be. i clicked through them to see what the deal was because it seems to be a point of contention for you. the most remarkable thing i found was posts from you, about the very subject, from a year ago. you're missing literally nothing.

[Lurk]

i am one of the people who did something about sigvatr (insofar as i was unpleasant and rude to him) but i don't think that is a positive example.

Sigvatr who made the muslim massacre game?

[Superb Joe]

Do you only want to be able to have positive interactions with people who have an emotional shield up at all times?

Yes. I don't like what's underneath unless it's a dramatic performance. You're acting like this is my problem. The way I see it, you have a problem.

[Cobralad]

it actually super easy to get to level 10, i think i did it on second account in no time. Fluffrabbit and michepadzblo seem like extremely online numbskulls, theyre gonna make it and become moderators befor summer 22 rolls out.

[fluffrabbit]

Do you only want to be able to have positive interactions with people who have an emotional shield up at all times?

Yes. I don't like what's underneath unless it's a dramatic performance. You're acting like this is my problem. The way I see it, you have a problem.

So it begins.

Actually, thanks. I'm putting that in the game.

[litHermit]

Hidden forums tied to a high post count are weird - today... But as someone mostly lurking I guess that's an expected stance on my behalf.
Still from outside looking in, it did seem to make sense several years ago when the community was bubbling and full of active threads/users/moderators...

[michaelplzno]

@joe, thanks for that, I just get a bit paranoid because you guys always talk about minus world and I just feel left out. I know that's a little childish to want to be in the clubhouse but it just felt weird. I think the guy who did Antichamber had a similar feeling towards the rest of the indies? Anyway, it seems like all I see are the shadows moving and never really the objects omitting them and I'm trying to figure out what is going on but it never feels 100% right. I guess my first game for the IGF that got me interested in TIG was about "Indirect Control" so I guess I never really got past the themes there maybe? IDK, when I compress all my time as a dev down stuff seems to come up.

@thems I agree with your sentiment a lot. When I was in my 20s I also put up a lot of bravado and yeah, its taken a long time to start seeing people as people to me.

@fluff there is a lot of research put into the idea that you can reinforce your own attitudes and behaviors you want to see more of through conscious effort. If you don't like who you are under the mask you choose to wear maybe you should pick a different mask?

@cobra, According to you I'm a numbskull and also you called me hitler once too. I don't really care too much what you think of me.

[Mark Mayers]

@joe, thanks for that, I just get a bit paranoid because you guys always talk about minus world and I just feel left out. I know that's a little childish to want to be in the clubhouse but it just felt weird. I think the guy who did Antichamber had a similar feeling towards the rest of the indies?

Yea, I definitely agree the indie scene is weirdly insular until the indie Illuminati indoctrinates you.

[litHermit]

Yea, I definitely agree the indie scene is weirdly insular until the indie Illuminati indoctrinates you.

Tbh aren't most scenes/cliques/subcultures that way?

[Cobralad]

shouldnt have spoiled it, but secret subforums had no new posts for like two years lol

[Mark Mayers]

Yea, I definitely agree the indie scene is weirdly insular until the indie Illuminati indoctrinates you.

Tbh aren't most scenes/cliques/subcultures that way?

Most definitely, but I feel indie game dev specifically is kind of extreme. There are few cliques where people make 10+ million dollars on their 7 year passion project and become the prom kings/queens of some bizarre internet high school.