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[st33d]

Goddamn you all! Where's my Saturday morning entertainment!

 

[leonelc29]

bad for st33d, you have to search elsewhere to get the entertainment.

so...does anyone still remember there's still another IGF? i mean, THIS IGF.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

igf-related article by craig stern: http://indierpgs.com/2012/01/where-are-all-the-rpgs-in-the-igf/

[st33d]

igf-related article by craig stern: http://indierpgs.com/2012/01/where-are-all-the-rpgs-in-the-igf/

Wow.

I submitted my platformer RPG to the IGF this year and as well as not getting any mention in the IGF line up I don't even get a mention for my RPG in an article saying that the IGF doesn't so much as mention RPGs.

Perhaps I assumed that everyone knew a roguelike is an RPG.

I'm truly floored by the irony of this.

I mean, I'm reading about not being included and yet I'm not even bloody included in not being included.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

hahaha

he probably just missed it, you could comment on it there

if it helps, he also didn't mention my game saturated dreamers; it's not a rpg but it's a zeldalike (sometimes called action-rpg), which is a related genre. but i think he specified that he included only self-described rpgs

[moshboy]

...but i think he specified that he included only self-described rpgs

Yeah.. I'm pretty sure he wrote that he searched by pressing ctrl-f using the term 'rpg' so that would probably explain it.

[biomechanic]

Yet he went out of his way to include Bastion, which

doesn’t describe itself as an RPG, but I think that one pretty clearly counts.

Does it really, though? It seems to me like little more than a hack'n'slash.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

bastion seems like an action-rpg to me. it has levels, and skill trees, and upgrading, and so on -- hack and slash games typically don't have level-ups and skill trees

[cynicalsandel]

Yet he went out of his way to include Bastion, which

doesn’t describe itself as an RPG, but I think that one pretty clearly counts.

Does it really, though? It seems to me like little more than a hack'n'slash.

I think he went out of his way to include Bastion because it was a finalist last year, I think.

[biomechanic]

bastion seems like an action-rpg to me. it has levels, and skill trees, and upgrading, and so on -- hack and slash games typically don't have level-ups and skill trees

I guess what you call an ARPG, I call a HnS. A game with some systems originating in RPGs, but entirely combat-oriented.

Games like Diablo, Bastion, or Torchlight - as well as most roguelikes, JRPGs and MMORPGs - fall into that category. If a game presents me with problems to solve and the only choice is between using a sword or a fireball to do that, I wouldn't call it an RPG.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

that's a pretty idiosyncratic use of the word rpg though, if it doesn't apply to most jrpgs, roguelikes, mmorpgs (two of which have the word "rpg" in their genre name). to me, a rpg is anything with an experience system; so zelda 2 would be a rpg, but not the other zelda games

[st33d]

Ah, tricky argument. Zelda has all the elements of a traditional RPG. The only thing it lacks is randomness (unless you count mowing the lawn for rupees).

It has a story, progression (through heart containers and items), dungeons, monsters, companions, etc.

So it boils down to whether gambling makes an RPG.

I personally feel like an RPG must have a gamble, there must be real doubt that no level of skill can overcome. But you can make a game feel exactly like an RPG and yet have no gambling element. Some people would argue that of Desktop Dungeons, but I think that choosing an area to explore to regain health is a gamble - it's puzzly, but still based on luck.

[DavidCaruso]

I think an RPG is literally a role playing game and no one has made one yet in videogame form, much less submitted one to the IGF. Instead, what people commonly refer to RPGs are games in any genre which have stat upgrading elements combined with a heavy focus on narrative.

EDIT: well, there's that thing by the guys who made Facade. but i doubt that'll amount to much more than a tech demo

[st33d]

Have you played Baldurs Gate 2?

That was pretty much table top D&D with one dish full of story and one dish full of hack and slash.

[Derek]

literally a role playing game

What does this mean? In most games you're literally playing a role...

[biomechanic]

I think that people equate stats and leveling up with RPGs because of all things that amount to classic pen-and-paper roleplaying games those are the easiest to implement in computer games, and for a long time they were the only ones.

For me - and not just me, as I've seen this view expressed by other people - a more important part of an RPG is playing a character, and that takes more than just numbers. Here's some examples of characters you can play in an RPG (in this case Fallout 2):
- an idiot giant with a heart of gold,
- a charismatic manipulative conman with a drug problem,
- a boy scout who goes out at night to murder prostitutes,
etc.

Here's some examples from games that may claim to be RPGs, or have RPG-elements, or have RPG as a part of their name:
- a level 2 mage,
- a level 20 mage,
- a level 20 warrior,
or:
- a soldier who shoots assault rifles and shotguns with rank 3 proficiency,
- a soldier who shoots sniper rifles with rank 4 proficiency and handguns with rank 2,
or:
- a guy with spiky hair whose parents were supposedly killed in mysterious circumstances but later turn out to be alive, who mostly uses his gunsword as a gun and put all the stat points into DEX,
- a guy with spiky hair whose parents were supposedly killed in mysterious circumstances but later turn out to be alive, who mostly uses his gunsword as a sword and put all the stat points into STR...

@Derek
But in most games you are restricted to one narrowly defined role, an RPG allows you to play the roles of very different characters in the same environment.

[DavidCaruso]

What does this mean? In most games you're literally playing a role...

In most traditional narrative-heavy games you're not playing a role, you're being directed through a predefined one. In a true RPG the player would have an extremely high degree of freedom that would let him be able to actually act out any decisions he would want to make if he was in the same situation as his avatar (in other words, role playing), with the game world around him adjusting and reacting dynamically. It's an important and interesting problem which ties into a ton of other CS concepts, and like I said in my edit the new game by the Facade guys looks fairly interesting in this regard (at least as a small tech demo for what might be possible in the future; I doubt it'll be very good as a game, and the scenario doesn't really seem that interesting to me.)

I think that people equate stats and leveling up with RPGs because of all things that amount to classic pen-and-paper roleplaying games those are the easiest to implement in computer games, and for a long time they were the only ones.

I agree with this but I don't think it's necessarily right, and I also think it leads to some really weird genre categorizations where stuff like Seiken Densetsu 3, Guardian Heroes and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night are all lumped into the same "action RPG" genre despite playing completely differently (as well as old Fallout and Fallout 3 both being called WRPGs, etc.) I think the games listed in the article, as well as the posts in this topic, make the confusion over the term clear enough. (Which is weird, because the author of that article seems to know what I mentioned above and even talks about stuff like player freedom, dynamic worlds, and nonlinearity...in the same breath as predefined narratives. It's a bit confusing.)

That being said, the main point that the IGF seems to favor less narrative-heavy games and that JRPGs/WRPGs rarely ever win much seems true. When it comes to action games, though, the only real difference between the ones getting "snubbed" and the ones that aren't is the stat-building component, and that doesn't seem to be enough to help further substantiate the claim that a huge category of games isn't being properly looked at.

[justinfic]

Craig's own narrow definition of what makes an RPG is probably just as much to blame for their absence in the noms list than any sort of  judging bias. I've always saw the IGF as one of those cooking competitions where you take everyday ingredients that anyone has access to and make dishes that are clever and unique. And I think if you look at the ingredients that make up RPGs, you would find they are actually quite prevalent. But to limit your definition of an RPG to a game that uses ALL those ingredients and none of those action/adventure ingredients and wonder why no RPGs get nominated, it's like wondering why no plain hamburgers ever win Iron Chef.

I'd also be curious to know how people would classify something like Artemis. RPG or not?

[J. R. Hill]

literally a role playing game

What does this mean? In most games you're literally playing a role...

Thank you, you see, I prefer not to think of myself as a "gamer" but a seasoned actor.  Throughout the years I've played the roles of hedgehogs, plumbers, street brawlers and kings.  I've played the lowest of the low and the highest of the high, I've channeled the very persona of characters of wildly varying nationalities, species, and even non-species such as robots, spectres, and even toxic slime.  My vast experience has yet to gain me any public recognition, however.

[Bandages]

J. R. I loved your performance in Ocarina of Time! Very convincing.