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[jamesprimate]

*** Big New Kickstarter update: ***

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rain-world/project-rain-world/posts/1149924

Mostly old news to you loyal devlog readers, but there is a pretty slick new trailer video and some never before seen screenshots 

[Christian]

*** Big New Kickstarter update: ***

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rain-world/project-rain-world/posts/1149924

Mostly old news to you loyal devlog readers, but there is a pretty slick new trailer video and some never before seen screenshots 

Dat teaser trailer...
 

[JLJac]

Hahaha lizard infighting is apparently what everyone is here for! I never would've known!

The stuff with different fighting styles in different breeds is viable, but it might be complicated when they have inter-breed scuffles. Like if one tries to wrestle and the other tries to do something else. These behaviors can obviously be given endless polish, and maybe we'll go there, but not right now. Whites flashing colors at each other is a totally awesome idea though, and really easy, so I'm definitely adding that 

It would self-regulate then, like in nature x)

Doooooubt it hahahaha! If I have any experience with programmed systems it is that they always do the opposite, ie get stuck in a self-enforcing loop and fly out on a tangent. It could be possible to make it happen if you added a lot of dampers and clampers to basically force everything to be stable, but then you're not really running a simulation either way, so it'd kind of defeat the purpose.

Update 403
Working on giving lizards individual traits. It's difficult, as the most important thing still is that the breeds are easy to tell apart.

First thing I did was to set up a false bell curve distribution generator. I know that an actual bell curve is the effect of semi-random distribution, but here I'm backwards engineering it - I created a system that made the distributions bell cruve-like. The formula can be skewed to have a varying tendency of distributing towards the edges or bring in the results towards the average:



This is used mainly for random differences in color and size.

The next step was to map the "spine", or body mesh, of the lizard. This isn't so obvious as it might seem, as the lizard isn't one single mesh but actually consists of a body and a tail, and a head, and there are troublesome transition areas between all of these. After some fussing I got this result:



As you can see the system not only maps the points along the "spine", but also the perpendicular vectors of each point and the "depth-rotation" effect from when the lizard moves around.

When I got this spine mapping in order, the obvious first thing to do was a ridge of scales/bumps/spikes along the back of the lizard. Later I want to add more stuff, like maybe little tassels on the tips of their tails, or some feathery/scaly appendages sticking out of their shoulders, as well as different stuff that might be attached to the head rather than the body. At this point I have some individual variations looking like this:



I'm happy with where things are headed, and I'm having a lot of fun, but as you can imagine this stuff can soak up an infinite amount of work, so I'm going to have find some point where it's good enough for now.

As you can see I've already started working a little bit with the balance between individual traits and breed traits. For example the greens are more prone to have a comb of scaly things along their back - the pinks sometimes do, but it's generally smaller and less colorful. The greens tend to have the more "feathery" appendages, whereas pinks usually have the "spiky" ones, when they do at all. This here sample isn't the best to show it, but there are some differences in how fat/skinny they are, compare the two leftmost pinks on the second row. There are also differences in head size and tail length/width, but that stuff had to be downplayed quite a lot as it made many individuals look absolutely ridiculous.

Here's a better example of skinny and fat specimens:



The fine balance to strike here is to make it so that individuals are recognizable while still keeping the breeds clearly separated. In this sample it's still visible (I hope) that the green is larger than the pink is larger than the blue, but the line is already becoming hazy - despite the individual differences not being super obvious! Apart from that there's the challenge of making all of them look good. In a sample of tens of individuals like this it's easy to be forgiving if one is not so hot, but if you have a minute-long encounter with a single lizard in a room and it looks goofy it's more problematic. So I'm anticipating it's going to be a bit difficult. But a lot of fun, for sure 

[Christian]

OMG...I was literally just thinking about how different lizards would be more dominant than others, maybe some would be physically larger, etc.
But this...wow. Those variations look great

[oldblood]

Saw the KS update and vid this morning. Awesome stuff as always. The new alpha build sounds absolutely huge. Really excited to get to play it!

The lizard variation is great as well. Nice subtle changes through will add a lot to the overall aesthetic.

[gimymblert]

It would be fun if body size is randomized at each run. You know there is likely to be a lizard in this room BUT its characteristic might change.

[Woodledude]

The stuff with different fighting styles in different breeds is viable, but it might be complicated when they have inter-breed scuffles. Like if one tries to wrestle and the other tries to do something else. These behaviors can obviously be given endless polish, and maybe we'll go there, but not right now.

Oh, absolutely, I'm sure that would be a nightmare. You probably have a lot on your plate right now that's a lot more important, but if there does come a time where you want to give this area more attention, an easy way to work this into the game slowly would be to have each lizard have a default behavior for most lizards - Probably the regular fighting - And then special behaviors for lizards they're "familiar with", such as their own species, or a rival species they tend to interact with a lot. That being said, I'm excited about many aspects of this game, and I agree it shouldn't necessarily be on the top of your list right now.

That aside, if you want to add more individual variation, probably the easiest way to do that would be to add scars. I remember you implementing damaged limbs somewhere, but spawning a lizard with a damaged limb might not be something you want to do for balance reasons - On the other hand, you could use that to HELP you balance some harder areas with a little character thrown in. That aside, there are easier ways to do scars, like having grey/white scar marks on various parts of the body. I'm sure you could have bite marks from other lizards, spear hole marks, and general cut marks - Maybe even bruises. Another thing you could do - I remember the teeth being a separate sprite from the head. If I'm right, you could have different sprites for the teeth to represent some lizards having missing teeth.

Other possibilities for variation might include coloration patterns on the body, but as I recall, the body sprites were very hard to work with. Perhaps you could overlay a transparent sprite with a pattern of scales over the body segments?

My apologies for the wall of text, I'm easily excited. I'll cut it off here, and I might try to stay quiet for a while.

[JLJac]

Thanks everyone

It would be fun if body size is randomized at each run. You know there is likely to be a lizard in this room BUT its characteristic might change.

James and I are having talk about to what extent the creature placement will be procedural. Our consensus last time we spoke was that there'd be a normal "new game" option in which the content is less procedural, and then a "new game +" in which the creatures (and other stuff!?) will be more procedural and more difficult. We'll have to see to what degree this is doable when we get there though.

@Woodledude oh by all means, don't keep quiet haha! If I didn't want to talk to people, why'd I run a devlog? Yep, the idea of a standard fighting style and a breed-specific crossed my mind. Might be worth it to go there, we'll have to see how much time people actually spend looking at the lizards idle behaviors. Scars are possible, but as you say it's a bit difficult to map textures to the creatures. Also I don't know how it'd work with the color restricted art style.

Update 404




More lizards! New for today is the scaly things with some physics interaction. Also I'm trying to get some breed traits down, right now the pinks tend to have some spikes coming out of their necks, greens has the mohawk, and blues have two lines (horns?) running down their body. All of these traits can of course in rare cases give way to individual variations. Also, please note how the pink up towards the right corner in the second image is fabulous. I'm actually pretty happy with the fact that there's random strange outputs like that, because I think it'll increase the narrative quality of the game if there are certain individuals that can be easily recognized.

[DarkWanderer]

Aren't there supposed to be reds, purples & pinks? Or are pink & purple the same? I'd imagine the red species would have to be distinct enough to not be confused, in terms of coloration anyway.

Also, looking at the lizards rotated like that, I don't think you'd see those positions too much in game. It'd be interesting if a lizard fell it could fall onto it's back & get stuck for a few seconds as it tries to reorient itself.

The blue's horns are hard to decipher, & currently uninteresting visually(not trying to be a jerk ) Maybe they could slowly bend upwards on an arc to make them visible a part from the body? Different individuals could have different horn lengths & curve gradients. I.e. one individual's horns could slowly arc upwards & run all the way down the length of it's body, another has a very drastic incline but the horns don't run run as far down. I guess that's a little similar to the pink though. I know you'll fine tune it.

[JLJac]

Yup, there'll be reds, and yup, I'm a little worried about how to keep the colors apart! Maybe I'll have to rely more on other features.

Actually the rotation effects are, in my opinion, strangely more clear in an actual game context. The differences between the individuals also seem to pop more when they're not all suspended on a grid:


(this amount of agression between lizards isn't normal by the way, it's because I pulled them all into the central room where they ended up in a big pile with a lot of biting, and the general annoyance hasn't worn of yet as of recording)

Yeah, blue needs some love still! Wasn't really thinking about it as "horns" as much as "lines along the body", sort of like how a chipmunks fur is colored, just that whatever this is connects to the head... Haha these are strange creatures, I shouldn't pretend I know what I'm doing. But yes, the blues need something more going for them. I think maybe tail tufts or something might just do the trick 

[Christian]

If I recall, Reds were going to be unstoppable, super-aggressive lizards. And Yellows (is yellow still in?) were going to be pack hunters.

Personally, I think greens should be the ones with horns since they ram and charge prey. White should be minimalist, since they rely on camouflage and their species would have evolved to stay low-key. I'd imagine blues as having larger spines and frills to make themselves appear bigger and more dangerous to other lizards that eat them

The purples seem to be the super-aggressive lizards of the bunch at the moment. How are the Reds different?

[chriswearly]

If I recall, Reds were going to be unstoppable, super-aggressive lizards. And yellow (is yellow still in?) were going to be pack hunters.

Personally, I think greens should be the ones with horns since they ram and charge prey. White should be minimalist, since they rely on camouflage and their species would have evolved to stay low-key. I'd imagine blues as having larger spines and frills to make themselves appear bigger and more dangerous to other lizards that eat them

The purples seems to be the super-aggressive lizards of the bunch at the moment. How are the Reds different?

I agree with all that.

On the Yellow Lizards, I don't EVER remember seeing a GIF of them.
But if there are Y's, then the list is as follows:
Black, White, Red, Pink (originally Magenta, and on the Wiki), Purple, Blue, Cyan, Green, Lime, Yellow, Orange.

Though haven't seen a Black one recently. Nor Orange.
And yeah James, the color differences/variances between the breeds seems almost smoothed, like there are Pink/Purple Lizards. (Which, for lore wouldn't be weird- any Lizard should be able to breed with any other). But for knowing what kind of Lizard behavior to expect, it might make it a bit difficult.
But even still you'd just have to know that a particular lizard could act like Pink or Purple, for example, which isn't that hard.

[JLJac]

Lizard colors are: pink, green, blue, white, yellow, red. There has been a little talk between me and James about a black one, but we have nothing solid on it.

Yellows existed in the lingo build, though I don't know if I ever made a gif of them - but yeah, they're pack hunters.

The purples seem to be the super-aggressive lizards of the bunch at the moment. How are the Reds different?

Just you wait - pinks will seem docile and friendly

[DarkWanderer]

The blue in motion actually looks pretty good.

Do you still plan to stick with the sticky spit idea we discussed oh so many pages ago? I'm hoping that idea struck a chord

[Christian]

If I recall, Reds were going to be unstoppable, super-aggressive lizards. And yellow (is yellow still in?) were going to be pack hunters.

Personally, I think greens should be the ones with horns since they ram and charge prey. White should be minimalist, since they rely on camouflage and their species would have evolved to stay low-key. I'd imagine blues as having larger spines and frills to make themselves appear bigger and more dangerous to other lizards that eat them

The purples seems to be the super-aggressive lizards of the bunch at the moment. How are the Reds different?

I agree with all that.

On the Yellow Lizards, I don't EVER remember seeing a GIF of them.
But if there are Y's, then the list is as follows:
Black, White, Red, Pink (originally Magenta, and on the Wiki), Purple, Blue, Cyan, Green, Lime, Yellow, Orange.

Though haven't seen a Black one recently. Nor Orange.
And yeah James, the color differences/variances between the breeds seems almost smoothed, like there are Pink/Purple Lizards. (Which, for lore wouldn't be weird- any Lizard should be able to breed with any other). But for knowing what kind of Lizard behavior to expect, it might make it a bit difficult.
But even still you'd just have to know that a particular lizard could act like Pink or Purple, for example, which isn't that hard.

Yellows were mentioned a long time ago. I don't think there were ever any images of them but they were listed here

Pink: A quick and intelligent hunter that will use vision and hearing to track you. Try to not let it spot you to begin with!
Green: A slow and dumb creature - easy to avoid but tough to take down.
Blue: This one can climb walls and ceilings. Nowhere is safe.
White: A passive but deadly hunter. It blends into its environment and ambushes you when you're passing by.
Yellow: Alone they're not much of a threat, but most often they hunt in packs - intelligently cooperating to track and kill you.
Red: A fast, strong and smart hunter with excellent vision and hearing. But what makes it most deadly is its persistance. Once it spots you it will never give up the hunt. Be aware!

So far everything matches up with those descriptions...so basically Reds and Yellows are going to be terrifyng

[chriswearly]

Lizard colors are: pink, green, blue, white, yellow, red. There has been a little talk between me and James about a black one, but we have nothing solid on it.

Yellows existed in the lingo build, though I don't know if I ever made a gif of them - but yeah, they're pack hunters.

The purples seem to be the super-aggressive lizards of the bunch at the moment. How are the Reds different?

Just you wait - pinks will seem docile and friendly

ohhhhhhh, ok. so they have variances.

So Pink is all the Pink/Purple looking ones
Blue is all the true blue and cyan looking ones.
Green is Green + Lime
Gotcha gotcha.
Welp time to update the Wiki

[chriswearly]

Yellows were mentioned a long time ago

Pink: A quick and intelligent hunter that will use vision and hearing to track you. Try to not let it spot you to begin with!
Green: A slow and dumb creature - easy to avoid but tough to take down.
Blue: This one can climb walls and ceilings. Nowhere is safe.
White: A passive but deadly hunter. It blends into its environment and ambushes you when you're passing by.
Yellow: Alone they're not much of a threat, but most often they hunt in packs - intelligently cooperating to track and kill you.
Red: A fast, strong and smart hunter with excellent vision and hearing. But what makes it most deadly is its persistance. Once it spots you it will never give up the hunt. Be aware!

So far everything matches up with those descriptions...so basically Reds and Yellows are going to be terrifyng

Yeah I remember that image. So I know they "existed".
But I never saw that text related to it! Interesting :D

[gimymblert]

What do you mean by keeping the color apart? In case of I drop of preventive link http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/46463/is-there-an-optimum-set-of-colors-for-10-players

[JLJac]

Update 405

Worked on some tail tufts, and got some more exciting looks for the blues:



I was inspired by sea slugs and am pretty happy with the result, though it might actually benefit from a little toning down. It becomes a bit too much rio carnival in some specimens haha!

The pinks are also rocking the occasional tail appendage, though smaller and usually less symmetrical:



Other than that, I've done further individualization of the whites, which was a little bit tricky because everything had to be able to change color.



Speaking of carnival, look at this one 



For the evening, the green lizard has picked a wonderful two-row shoulder scale formation, which goes surprisingly well with the spinal ridge! Quite unorthodox! And to top it off, a tail plume. This look is certainly straddling the line of tasteful, but we appreciate the bravery!

[Zorg]

Stunning!

The long chipmunk stripes of the blue lizards do not work very well in my eyes, but short stripes make great horns/antlers. You should limit the size of the stripes to a maximum length value around the half of the body size. In combination with the new tail tuft (~2nd half of the body) the blues look perfect.

Edit: Symmetrical highlights look much better than the randomly distributed patterns. If you would use 1-5 rows for the shoulder and 1-3 rows for the tail there should be more than enough variation, imho.