next »

[Corpus]

I think it would be a good idea to have a thread for the design doc, a thread solely for engine releases (i.e. a new post for each new update with information on the changes made) and a further thread for discussion on the engine releases, for the sake of organisation and easy reference.

[Valter]

Sure. Maybe we could arrange a "current release" topic that only Nightshade would post in to add new versions? Then we could discuss things here. I don't think we need a separate topic discussing the new releases. I would imagine that would happen here anyway.

[Corpus]

Oh, yeah. Good point

[William Broom]

The problem with that RPS system is that it breaks down somewhat at the point where normal attacks beat special attacks. Since special attacks generally have a longer range than normal attacks, I think it will be quite hard for players to counter them with normal attacks. To counteract this, I think special attacks in general should have long windup times and telegraphing animations, which give the opponent a chance to either cancel (if they're close enough) or dodge/jump if they're not.

[Soulliard]

Outlines or no outlines? Brilliant question! Discussions like these fill me with faith that this will be the BEST GAME EVER!

This game is going to be perfect; I just know it. Even in its current state, its beauty moves me to tears.

PS. I really respect your decision to use Game Maker; some people underestimate its power. It's perfect for a game like this, and it's so easy to use that we'll have a finished game in no time.

You guys are so talented and awesome, and I'm honored to have you as my friends. I love you all so much!


Hugs and Kisses,

Skofo

Being a mod is amazing! 

[Inane]

Don't abuse your power ! You'll grow up to be a dictator-admin!

[Derek]

Ooh yeah, don't do that again.  Otherwise I'll have to take away your powers.

[Soulliard]

I know, I was bad... 

But that one post had so much negativity! It was bad feng shui...

Now that the Qi is flowing normally again, I pledge to only use my powers when absolutely necessary! 

[Nitro Crate]

ya changing posts is uncool.

ontopic: I don't really like the rps system. It seems to be something that is just tacked on to add strategy and doesn't really focus on fun, at least in my opinion. I think the strategy should come from either blocking or dodging. (Not both) To really simplify it. I mean in a fast paced game like this, complex systems don't work too well. Like in brawl, the only way to have any strategy at all is to have a 1v1, any more and it becomes pretty hard to manage when you should be doing what.

If we decide to have just blocking, I think we should make it so it's directional based and you only block one direction at a time. Also if you have really good timing or something the block would turn into a counterattack. (Maybe only for ranged attacks?)

[MekanikDestructiwKommando]

pls include advanced techniques like Melee <3

[Nitro Crate]

pls include advanced techniques like Melee <3

oh ya if we can do this too that would be cool.

(like how the advanced techniques in melee are based off of using simple things, ex. wave dashing)

[William Broom]

Perhaps we could tone down the RPS system somewhat by making it so that only close-range specials are unblockable. It seems to me like it might be quite difficult to play against a character like Quote or Liero who can lay down tons of projectiles, all of them unblockable. How about not only are projectiles blockable, but they can be reflected with a well-timed guard press, as a standard move for all characters. Of course it would also lead to some Zelda-esque tennis rallies.

[Xion]

chutup - I like that idea. That's how it was done in smash bros. melee, but the timing was so hard to get exactly right (for me at least) that I think such "tennis rallies" would be hard to pull off without coordination on both sides.

I never really liked the rps idea from the start.

Another idea is to make blocking directional. And that's it. It can block everything.  Coming from the front.

[Valter]

I don't really like that, because it still allows you to block anything. I mean, the enemy could conceivably go behind you, but then you could just turn around and start shielding again. I agree with only blocking projectile specials.

HOWEVER: I think that only melee based characters should get reflect moves. There should be some way to balance it so that the characters that have a harder time getting to the enemy to damage it will at least be able to keep from being damaged on the way there.

Example: The Golden Knight has less projectile attacks than Quote and Curly. For him to get to them from across the screen, he would have to take massive punishment from their projectile attacks. With a reflect move or special, he could more easily reach them by knocking their attacks back into them. Just a thought.

[Soulliard]

I think Chutup's suggestion is great. Unblockable projectiles can be a real pain to dodge. As long as we give each character at least one unblockable melee attack, (Quote's booster, for example), the system will still punish constantly holding the shield button- but it will be a more attractive option.

I don't think directional shielding would work very well, however. It would be difficult to implement with the current engine, and the direction some attacks are coming from would be pretty ambiguous.

GeneralValter's suggestion that melee characters have anti-projectile moves is a good one- and we've already taken some steps in this direction. Turner can counter projectiles and reflect them, and the Golden Knight can absorb projectiles to raise his bonesaw meter.

Although, as long as projectiles are balanced by slow firing speeds or lack of knockback, I don't think they'll be too overpowered.

[Oracle]

Holy shit!, this actually progressed!   
Ill try to help out whenever i get a chance! It´s a damn shame my tablet is broken, otherwise ill be all over this!

By the way, anyone is looking for a partner for the demake competition? it got me really excited!

[Hideous]

Holy shit!, this actually progressed!   
Ill try to help out whenever i get a chance! It´s a damn shame my tablet is broken, otherwise ill be all over this!

By the way, anyone is looking for a partner for the demake competition? it got me really excited!

I would be looking for a partner, but 1. I don't have any ideas 2. I don't have anything to make a game with.

[Oracle]

Holy shit!, this actually progressed!   
Ill try to help out whenever i get a chance! It´s a damn shame my tablet is broken, otherwise ill be all over this!

By the way, anyone is looking for a partner for the demake competition? it got me really excited!

I would be looking for a partner, but 1. I don't have any ideas 2. I don't have anything to make a game with.

I dont want to hijack this thread, so
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=2298.90
What do you mean by n° 2 tho?

[William Broom]

So, on a different subject, I was thinking about how there are a lot of great indie games that wouldn't work as characters but could be great as stages. So I thought maybe instead of following the Smash Bros formula of 'everyone gets a home stage and Mario gets three', we could include more stages that don't have characters to go with them. As a small selection of the possibilities:
Clean Asia - fight on the back of a destructible, modular spaceship
Death Worm - a flat battlefield with a surprise beneath the ground
Hermies - a minimalist stage with asses that can be fucked (i.e. attacked) for more health
Tarenagasi - pretty self explanatory, I'm afraid.
And so on, you get the idea.

[Soulliard]

I was thinking the exact same thing. A lot of great indie games don't have characters that easily translate into fighting games, but just about any game can be made into a stage. Chalk and Samarost, for example, would make great stages.


Back on the subject of balancing blocking:

Blocking attacks is a fun part of the game. However, there needs to be some way to prevent players from constantly holding the guard button. Otherwise, in most modes, simply sitting there and shielding is a winning strategy.

I see five solutions to the problem: Shield HP, Unblockable Attacks, Nearly-Unblockable Attacks, Temporary Shields, or No Shields.

Shield HP was my original solution to the problem. It seemed to work well enough; shielding was useful against just about any attack, but you couldn't rely on it too much. It wouldn't last forever. The main problem with this system is that it added an extra variable you had to track, and was a little overly complicated.

Unblockable attacks seemed like a good solution. If we include unblockable attacks, though, there needs to be some obvious way to distinguish them from standard attacks. Making all special attacks unblockable, and all standard attacks blockable, accomplished this. Whenever you made an attack, you knew right away whether an attack was blockable or not.

However, this created some other balance issues. For example, projectile attacks seem to work better if they can be blocked. I believe that this is because unblockable attacks that affect a large area are so difficult to defend against that they aren't very fun. This, unfortunately, limits our creativity when creating special attacks, since some simply wouldn't be fair if unblockable. Also, this system requires that each character has at least one unblockable non-projectile attack.

Maybe there's a better system for determining which attacks should be unblockable or not, but I can't think of any right now.

This system might work better if certain special attacks (like projectiles) were mostly-unblockable. Ordinarily, they couldn't be blocked by an attack. However, if the defender's timing was perfect, the attack would still be blocked. This solution could work quite well, although a particularly skilled player would still be nearly untouchable. Also, it promotes frame-counting, which is no fun.

Making shielding only temporary (so you shield yourself only for a brief period after the button is pressed, and there's a cooldown time before you can shield again) could also solve this problem. It would require better timing than the other systems, so the ability to block an attack would be largely limited by a player's skill. However, in some situations (such as when an opponent makes several attacks in rapid succession), it would not provide adequate protection, which could be frustrating. Plus, cooldown times are annoying, and should be used only when necessary.

Finally, we could just eliminate shielding entirely, putting more of an emphasis on running or jumping out of the way. This is the simplest solution, but it would probably make the game a little too shallow. And it would make some attacks easier to abuse.

I'm not sure which of these solutions is best (or if there are any better solutions out there), so I'd like to hear your thoughts. This is one of the last few major gameplay issues we still need to deal with.