next »

[J-Snake]

I hate gimmicks.

[Uykered]

not be dependent on the input-speed of the player.

Aren't fighters all about a player's reflexes?

[J-Snake]

Reflexes are good and fine, but in the space of mind, not in the space of physical button-input. Physical button-input has to go as fast as possible, for everyone. A game benefiting heavily from an arcade-stick has an exxagerated focus on the physical button-input-speed.
One implication is that many people will consider such games dumb.

[s_l_m]

Broke down and bought a Wii U online, it was like 50 bucks extra but I decided that my Christmas gift to myself would be not having to spend hours going from store to store trying to track one down  
Should be here in a few days

Also, I don't think anyone has thrown this up here yet, so if anyone is interested:
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/support/oss/index.html

[VDZ]

not be dependent on the input-speed of the player.

Aren't fighters all about a player's reflexes?

If you mean 'reflexes' as in 'semi-conscious immediate responses to stimuli' (like 'twitch dodging' in shoot-m-ups), then no, not at all.

Fighting games are about being quick enough in analyzing the current situation and acting accordingly; rather than quick button presses, it mostly requires quick thinking. If you see a slow, powerful attack coming, quickly interrupt it with a quick, weak attack. If your opponent is blocking and standing still, grab your opponent. If you see the opponent starting a low attack, quickly do a low block. If you notice your opponent is doing an attack for which you are just barely in range, take a step back. If your opponent is recovering from unsuccessfully doing an attack, charge in and make use of the situation by performing the actions that will cause the most damage.

This is the point where some people will just go 'LOL casual' and disregard my argument, but

. If you look closely, you'll see that the players are jumping around and doing a wide variety of moves depending on the constantly changing situation; despite SSB's extremely simple controls a lot of quick thinking is required to do anything at all to your opponent. Especially beautiful in this context is the situation at 0:47 of the linked video; at 0:43 both players notice they are in the air at a perfect position to hit eachother, and they take advantage of this at the same time, sending them both flying. MK0, the Falco (blue bird to the right) player uses his Up-B to reach the ground again as soon as possible while his opponent is still in the air. At 0:44 GOD? (the Luigi player) tries a similar thing to prevent his opponent from making it difficult for him to land if he manages to reach his edge before he manages to land. At 0:45, MK0 notices his opponent started his very slow movement attack and takes advantage of it - he rushes towards him, and at 0:47, exactly in the small time frame when GOD?'s Luigi is plummeting helplessly before reaching the edge, MK0 jumps up and uses an attack that sends him flying straight down, as there's no solid ground below GOD?. He then uses another movement attack to get him to the edge and climb up before his opponent respawns.

Plain reflexes won't help you pull of something like that. It's all a matter of quick analysis, reading your opponent, and quick thinking to take advantage of any weakness your opponent shows.

[gimymblert]

0:43 to 0:47 it's like a whole chapiter for just 4s?

SSB has it flaws, it's just too subtle and there is too many parameter, also a huge lacks of clear punishment because the opponent always has many option.

Notice all these flaws are just visceral and mimicry aspect? SSB is more "intellectual" the wow factor come from understanding not mere skill demonstration. It's actually less accessible, much less.

Traditional fighting games are glorified RPS with timing and complication gated input. Freeform guitar heroes with some mind game.


edit:
HEY this isn't even a top tier level pro match

[The Monster King]

pro players can do a lot of things on reaction but usually youll have to guess what the other players do

most games are rock paper scissors^ (when there is no diceroll, or stats too i guess but is that EVEN A GAMEEEE)

[SirNiko]

Complicating the inputs gives players more ways they can master the game. If the game was just a matter of who can push the button first, then reflexes would be the only thing that mattered. If you introduce a rock-paper-scissor mechanic, then it's about determining the right button to press and the timing to press it. Complicating the inputs (multiple buttons to press) means the player also needs to learn and remember sequences in addition to knowing which sequence to use, and then timing it properly.

In a fighting game, where you're playing against another human being, that usually means you have to learn every one of those things and master them, or you'll lose against the people who did memorize every combo, every counter, and the timing of each attack.

In a single player game where the player is playing against a static measuring stick, it's not so brutal. A player that gets the timing and reactions down can usually get away with only knowing a few of the combos, or a player who perfects the combos might not need to counter correctly so often because their combos are so effective.

The WiiU introduces a new area to the game strategy - manipulating the menu in-game while doing all the things you'd normally do in the game. If properly designed, that means that the player has one more area they can maximize to play the game effectively. A player who learns to arrange their menu quickly, and swap items on the fly but is otherwise mediocre at the game can do better then a player who might have perfect reflexes but simply doesn't learn to manage inventory.

On the other hand, if the menu was only accessed while the game was paused, yeah, it'd just be a gimmick because it doesn't motivate the player to play the game in any different way. But that's not the case. The touch pad isn't being used as a gimmick. It's making the player adopt new strategies that you wouldn't have adopted in a standard Wii game.

[gimymblert]

Well smash bros as simple input but you still have to learn the "grammar", the main difference is that it's not fixed and freeflow depending on reading the context. Pulling move like 4xarrow circling is therefore more difficult to pull as it have improvisational bit in, you still have to practice. Contrast with combo and super techniques and gauge which have a fixed sequence of input generally followed by a script animation with very little uncertainty (the opponent is locked in stun) as long you pull out the move, it's like a QTE but prompt by a small mind game before. But it allow for a more clear feedbacks of skills as the non interruption does shoes skills. In smash bros you must factor the opponent's reaction and stage events on top of RPS, timing and reflexes, and that's only when there is only 1 opponent.

Zombi U isn't gimmicky in that accessing the deep menu still allow you to react to the unpaused world, therefore increase tension as it replicate the anxiety of doing things while being exposed to danger, that the game pull it nicely is to be seen when I'l play the game.

[-Rob-D.]

My NNID is FleenerWonka - I'll add you guys soon. There's two ways to add people, right? From the regular list via home button and also the Miiverse? Are the lists mutual? Also finished NSMBU today. Bowser looked fantastic in HD.

[gimymblert]

[Fifth]

I got one, but I haven't been able to play it much.

My ID is Raccoon

[VDZ]

Contrast with combo and super techniques and gauge which have a fixed sequence of input generally followed by a script animation with very little uncertainty (the opponent is locked in stun) as long you pull out the move, it's like a QTE but prompt by a small mind game before. But it allow for a more clear feedbacks of skills as the non interruption does shoes skills.

That's only the Street Fighter way of doing combos (and I hate that). Certain other games (such as the somewhat obscure Melty Blood) have an improvisational combo system where you can do combos by just performing normal attacks in such a manner that every hit connects before the opponent recovers. It has all the advantages of pre-programmed combos except it relies on understanding of the game (and character you're playing with) instead of just memorizing whatever's printed on the combo list. (It also allows for much more complicated and skillful comboing.)

The less it's about memorizing lists of moves and the more it's about actually being good at the game, the better, IMO.

[The Monster King]

while if i have to choose between the two i will pick melty blood its not that different from street fighter 4s combo system there are just a lot more cancels in melty blood and its slightly more forgiving though there are still some pretty tight links if you want combos to work sometimes as tight as street fighters


smash bros is a pretty shit competitive game though
mostly because the designer really hates it being seen as that

[gimymblert]

Brawl, sir, brawl, even if this one has some brilliance too.
We can just hope the hardcore focus of wiiU bring back the good of melee

[Udderdude]

hardcore focus of wiiU

You're hallucinating things again.

[gimymblert]

 

[SirNiko]

Played Nintendo Land with three players today, plus spectators.

The Animal Crossing game was our favorite by far, because it felt the most balanced and offered the most strategy. One player gets to control two guards with the tablet, one mapped to each stick and shoulder. Everyone else gets an animal. Animals have to collect candy to win, while the guards win if they get a total of three tags. As the animals get loaded with candy they slow down, which means you have to split the load or have one animal distract the guards while the other loads up from a stockpile of candy they've unloaded. If a guard catches you, you can dump candy to lighten your load, but obviously this moves you away from your goal.

The guard player can decide between hunting a single animal with both guards, cornering them for a kill, or splitting up to catch animals that are loaded with candy and slow. The animals can dump candy in corners to prepare for a quick game finishing load-up, or have one distract a guard while the other player sneakily loads up on candy to finish the game in one fell swoop.

It's hilarious and satisfying when, as a guard, you make an animal player panic and dump their candy. The fact that the animals can't see the guard's screen adds a level of surprise, since the animals are verbally communicating strategy while the guard can coordinate his forces in silence. And, like most of the games, the camera on the tablet project's the guard-player's face on the screen, so you can even watch them and guess what they're thinking without looking away from the screen.

The Luigi Mansion game uses vibration to (almost) silently alert players to the presence of the ghost player, so it's another game where you have to communicate what you're feeling. Once the ghost gets hit once, though, it gets really easy for the players to corner the ghost and keep roasting it with the flashlights.

Mario Chase is fun too, but games vary wildly in length, since the goal is just to tag mario once.

The co-op games are really fun too, though you need wii motion plus controllers to play Metroid and Zelda, which spoiled things a bit since we only had one of those. The tablet player in Metroid and Zelda has more range and mobility, so it's fun having arrows and lasers coming out of nowhere as your ally jumps out to save you. The games are hard, though! Zelda starts throwing big groups of enemies at you that require a lot of precise slashing and shooting to take out.

We also played Mario, but didn't enjoy that multiplayer as much. One player was really bad at platformers, and the player with the tablet was having a lot of trouble keeping her alive with the tablet platforms. We switched up a few times, but the whole thing didn't feel any different than Mario on the Wii. I think that Mario U is best played single player.

I'm really enjoying the Pikmin game on Nintendo Land. The time trials to get Master Ranks have really tight times, and getting them requires a level of precision I haven't seen in a first party Nintendo game possibly ever.

[s_l_m]

my ID is N1ght_Hawk
Add me 

[The Monster King]

Brawl, sir, brawl, even if this one has some brilliance too.
We can just hope the hardcore focus of wiiU bring back the good of melee

just play a real game like guilty gear B)