I'd like to see a baboon wearing a harlequin mask sometime, do they do that? Their faces are pretty crazy already. I had this whole thing almost all typed up, and then I got CAUGHT UP FOR TWO HOURS AT
DA BURSAR. Would be a shame to let all this fancy quoting go to waste.
and @Anarkex, thanks for the responses, my main disagreement still is your tone/style of argument.
eh.
for instance, you say ueda is "full of sh*t" when he says that ico isn't a videogame, which doesn't consider the possibility that he may simply be using words differently than you / defining videogames by different essentials than you are.
Not considering it because it isn't true. Do I consider the possibility that the sun rises in the West?
what i mean is you seem to use words in an intrinsic manner, as if they were abstract ideals rather than tools of categorization and discussion (example: saying movies are games because they have goals).
Ah, see, that actually wasn't me I was referring to before, though I do think that. I was having a laugh over how Icycalm once said that
exact thing.
But there is a yet simpler way of grasping in what way an old-fashioned cutscene was still a doing of sorts, indeed even a game, though a primitive kind of game, to be sure -- a cutscene-only game. A game with only a single rule: to just fucking sit there and watch the entire cutscene, preferably even in one go. Whoever managed to do it (and remember, these are TWO-HOUR-PLUS cutscenes we are talking about!), whoever watched the entire cutscene -- whoever FINISHED IT... had basically won the game. Whoever didn't finish it had quite simply lost. If this seems to you as far too easy a feat you are not thinking hard enough.
Of course, judging movies as games is kind of silly, as we see above. But in an in-depth conversation we need to consider in-depth definitions. Strictly speaking, a game needs to have interaction; not goals, because these arise naturally wherever there is interaction. However, when you get down to it everything you can do requires
some action (which was Icycalm's point when he wrote the above quote), and so everything is sort of a game. This isn't something disputable, it's straight logic.
The definition of a "VIDEO game" is a little more inclusive. The semantics here actually are for once not worth arguing (I know, right?), but in general we can consider a video game, as Icycalm once did, to be a "completely original game designed to run on a computer". Let's say to exclude straight media that the rules must be hard coded into the game, because text on a screen describing a game is not a video game regardless of what Anna Anthropy thinks.
which is fine, but doesn't lead to very interesting conversation, only arguments over what words actually are or mean.
Which, when the argument is over what is and is not a "game" or "notgame" or "ungame" or "medium" or "art", seems to me is the entire argument.
besides which calling such a respectable person full of sh*t is very distasteful to me, couldn't you just say he's wrong, or mistaken?
First of all, who cares. Out of the two hundred ways to say someone is wrong I picked the one I liked the best. Second of all, I know he's not "mistaken", because he had a reason for insisting that Ico was not a video game: he wanted to dodge the so-called "negative stigma" of video games and elevate his work above "mere vidya" in the eyes of the ignorant. Sound familiar?
in general i don't see why the tone in this thread has to be so hostile
Uh, because it's awesome,
especially towards people who are just doing their own thing and making games the way they want
As I said before, this goes beyond Tale of Tales' output of trash games. They are slandering the hard work of all game devs, some of whom actually make good games.
you can express arguments against ToT or against ueda etc. without sounding that way
Yes, but it would be really boring.
Sooooo... could anybody who disagrees on their 'games are not art' statement please list a few games that ARE art, Im getting curious now?
Musihime Sama Futari, Street Fighter III 3rd Strike, Pikmin, Guilty Gear Accent Core, Bayonetta, Phantom Dust, Metal Slug 3, Monster Hunter, God Hand, Shiren The Wanderer, Sin and Punishment, Super Mario Bros 3, Contra: Hard Corps, ESP Ra.De., R Type, Unreal Tournament 2004, Jet Grind Radio, Gunvalkyrie, Halo, Fallout...
The list can go on.
You'll notice that I actually spent the two paragraphs of discussion around your point largely agreeing that they were wrong to claim such a harsh dichotomy between natural games and video games, and that it forces us to assume that by 'video game' they actually mean only a specific subset of video games. Which greatly weakens their argument as all their latter claims of "Video games are [not] ..." must become "Some video games are [not] ..."
The only thing i'm not getting here is that there doesn't seem to be anything specific about that subset at all. Besides being "what we at ToT do not like." Other than that, yeah.
Let's stop yapping about games and go back to making them.
Good idea bro, but to make a game you gotta close the web browser first.
Player
