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[tametick]

but as for general advice, i feel that flash games are a fad and not a stable way to make money.

Hrm. If they are that it's a "fad" that has been there for a decade already.

I think the platform (flash) doesn't really matter and might be dethroned some day (by unity, html5/js, something else) but licensing free to play games to 3rd parties (portals are basically publishers for flash games, only they license complete works rather than finance development) is here to stay for at least a while longer IMO.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

fads can last way longer than a decade. for instance, i think 3d games are a fad too, and they've lasted longer than a decade as well

[tametick]

fads can last way longer than a decade. for instance, i think 3d games are a fad too, and they've lasted longer than a decade as well

I see you've edited your post and are actually talking about something a bit different. I agree with you that the model has some disadvantages, but I disagree that either flash (or unity, or html5, or whatever tech comes along to replace it) or 3d games are fads, unless you understand that word totally different than I (or google) do.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i mean fad in the sense of something new which is popular and which people do because of peer pressure, but which one day will no longer be as popular, returning something old to the dominant position. i meant more that 'making flash games as a way to riches is a fad among game developers' than 'playing flash games is a fad among gamers', though. so i don't think flash games themselves are a fad, i just think the gold rush for indies to make flash games is a fad

currently the make flash games fad is dying down and being replaced by the make iphone games fad

[tametick]

I don't think many would argue that it's a way to riches, tho.

It's just one more option among many others, with its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

maybe many wouldn't argue against it, but i would -- i don't think it's a *long-term* way to make money, just a short-term one, for the reasons mentioned above (there's no gradual building up of a player base who know who you are or of traffic to one's site)

[tametick]

It's definitively sacrificing some of the long term for the short term, but it can still be used together with other methods to achieve success in both the long and short terms, e.g. Andy Moore (somehow I know his name even tho he doesn't sell downloadable games!) starting out with SteamBirds for flash and then releasing ios and android versions.

Another example of the same is solipskier.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

but aren't those both examples of "one hit game" rather than a long string of successful games spanning decades? by long-term i meant through a career, like 40-60 years

those are also exceptions (the 0.0001% of people who achieve super-success) -- i'm going more by averages and what happens typically, rather than the highest peaks or bolts of lightning (which often aren't repeated). e.g. the spiderweb softwares and cliffskis of the world, not the notches or terrarias

[tametick]

but aren't those both examples of "one hit game" rather than a long string of successful games spanning decades? by long-term i meant through a career, like 40-60 years

those are also exceptions (the 0.0001% of people who achieve super-success) -- i'm going more by averages and what happens typically, rather than the highest peaks or bolts of lightning (which often aren't repeated). e.g. the spiderweb softwares and cliffskis of the world, not the notches or terrarias

I have on idea, I guess we will need to wait and see.

BTW I will put both of my examples well within cliffski's and vogel's warm, moderately successful, indie bosom.

The average for all types of indie game devs is making little to no money what-so-ever, so those that are seeking a quick buck in making flash games, iphone games or the even newer social games will be better served looking somewhere else.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i'm not that familiar with your examples, then -- i don't know which other games those people made, or how long they've been in business. it's hard to call something a long-term success if they've only gotten successful recently (except in the sense that they've made enough money to last them for a lifetime in a short-term period, which is fine but not really something to rely on)

in any case there's definitely many different ways to approach making money, it's just that i tend to favor ways that connect me with a community rather than ways that put something between me and the community -- such as third-party licenses, publishers, e.g. anything except direct sales or direct interaction of some other kind. i don't even really like portals (like steam) because they take away that direct connection; i think people should use them but not become reliant on them

another way to put this is: in 50 years there probably won't be people making money from selling games to flash game portal sites, but there will still be people making money directly from customers

[Arowx]

I think by Fad you mean technological fashion, and yes everything changes.

I can guarantee that I will earn something, the problem is how to make enough to turn game development into a living, hence my challenge!

I use Unity and using it I can build games for the Web*, PC, Mac, Android, iOS so the the question is given my limited skill set (see games), timeline, and low budget where should I focus my very limited resources?

*Althoough it sounds like my Kongregate based web games might not be working can anyone else confirm this My Kongregate Games and let me know on Kongregate please not here via Kongregates bug reporting tool, thank you?

[tametick]

Works for me.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think unity is a respectable tool, but i'd encourage you to try to make more than web games with unity, instead make downloadable games that people can buy -- one reason for that is that unity web games require a browser plug-in which is not widespread, whereas unity downloadable games don't require that, another reason is that you can't sell web games (although you can put the demo on the web, which can be helpful, as with vvvvvv's demo)

i'd also encourage you to work with others; don't try to make games alone and do everything yourself. get an artist, get a musician, etc., and give them a % of sales. it may seem like you have to earn more money to make up for that, but talent is multiplicative: it's far easier to make $100,000 with a team of 5 people than it is to make $20,000 by one person working alone

[mirosurabu]

I'm not sure what Paul is talking about. Flash games do connect developers with players. Of course, if you treat games as if they are distractions you'd get no following, but that's certainly not unique to flash games. It has nothing to do with web platform itself.

The disadvantage of flash sponsorship is that sponsors want to invest in games that have a lot of viral potential. A niche game, by definition, has no viral potential. So, if you make a very good niche game and try to sell it to sponsors you'd get less money than a generic tower defense clone would. Consequently, a niche game would get less interest from flash players, but that's also stemming from the nature of these games. So these virality-based models don't quite work with niche games.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i meant in terms of the players and the dev not having to go through a third-party (such as a portal) in order to communicate with one another. to me, people posting on a game's forums on a game developer's website or exchanging emails with the developer is much more community-interactive than exchanging comments on a flash portal comments section

and, as mentioned, with flash portals, when you release a new game, there's no way to contact all the people who played your previous games and tell them about your new one, so you don't really get as many long-term fans who follow your work

[Arowx]

OK lots of conflicting views appearing this is my plan complete the little game HMS Lightning, release it on Kongregate, port it to Andoid, IOS, Mac and PC and see how it does on each platform, reveal the sales stats on my blog.

So if you support a platform what can I do to maximise sales of HMS Lightning on that platform?

Video of HMS Lightning the game -



Beta version on Kongregate - http://www.kongregate.com/games/Arowx/hms-lightning-beta2

[mirosurabu]

and, as mentioned, with flash portals, when you release a new game, there's no way to contact all the people who played your previous games and tell them about your new one, so you don't really get as many long-term fans who follow your work

You don't have to limit yourself to flash portals. If you have a blog (or a forum), these people will find you and follow you. Take a look at this. Sponsors don't mind that so as long you don't compete with them (i.e. you are not trying to become a flash portal), so it's pretty much the same as with downloadable games.

Saying you can't build a fanbase through flash portals is like saying you can't build fanbase via YouTube.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i wouldn't want to rely on players finding my site -- it seems like that'd happen only with a tiny fraction of players

but i'm not saying it's impossible, just harder. the youtube analogy is good though: on youtube, people give up a lot of control, which is why a lot of popular youtube personalities first release videos on other sites where they have more control, and put trailers on youtube linking to those sites (ask a ninja, angry videogame nerd, etc.) -- e.g. james rolfe uses youtube to build up a community at cinemassacre

[mirosurabu]

With downloadable games, your players find you through reviews on various websites and word of mouth. With flash games they find you through reviews on various websites, word of mouth and flash portals. That's hardly giving up control to me.

Now whether you release on flash portals before taking the other approach is a different question.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah but the issue is not how they find you, but how they find you again -- the retention rate. i still think downloadable games have a greater retention rate than flash games do, mainly because of email. when i release my next game i can email everyone who bought my previous game about it. when you release your next flash game you can't really email everyone who played your previous flash games about it