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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessHow big is your team? How do you work together?
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Chris Polus
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« on: October 23, 2012, 06:55:46 AM »

I'm wondering how the demography of game projects looks like on TIG. Would you mind sharing a little something about your project from the perspective of the people behind it.

Do you develop games on your own?
Or in a team of 2 or more people?
Do all your team mates live in the same area or are you from all over the country or even international?
How do you guys keep in touch? Skype chats or calls? Other collaboration platforms? Twitter?

We're kind of a big team and I'd like to see how you guys tackle keeping the project together. Maybe we'll get some interesting insights.
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kacper_weiland
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 07:05:21 AM »

I'm working on my own. I'm designer, artist and programmer. Why? Because I have no money to hire someone.
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Chris Koźmik
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 07:22:28 AM »

I'm developing solo right now and I'm rather happy.

I used to work in 4-7 people teams but I was not thrilled by the efficiency. I used a lot of time managing the team (telling who should do what, training new people, recruiting new people, writing design docs, etc, etc) in addition to my dev tasks. Sure, if I were just a project manager it could have been fun, but being a project manager, leading programmer, animator and doing other small things for which we could not find people in time is a bit exchausting :D
And in the end all these projects got cancelled (in restrospection the main reason was my incompetence as the project leader, I think :D).
The only stuff that got me money was things I made alone (not that it is some general universal truth, still that's how it turned out for me).

As for on site vs online collaboration. I have mixed feelings. On one hand we always had the core team on site, on the other we also had some great people (exactly 1 person :D) that worked online fine.
I think the online collaboration works only for stuff that you can clearly define and do not involve participation in planning (I would not want to have several programmers working remotely, it's best if they are in the same room; but if it is an artist that simply has a list of stuff to draw, it should be OK).
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Evilmincer
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 11:35:14 PM »

I have a 7 man team..
There's me the producer, and designer, we have a lawyer who is also the financial officer. graphic design, modelers/animators, coders, server admin.

But what really sucks about my team.. Is, I've been doing most of everyones work, and they just pick up slack and shit. Mostly because I work at a very fast pace and I don't like waiting around for anyone to finish something up. Especially when it hinders what im doing for more then a few days.

So size really doesn't matter in this. It's rather Who do you have that is Proficient and Reliable?

Which I believe is the more appropriate question to ask.
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2012, 12:20:40 AM »

But what really sucks about my team.. Is, I've been doing most of everyones work, and they just pick up slack and shit. Mostly because I work at a very fast pace and I don't like waiting around for anyone to finish something up. Especially when it hinders what im doing for more then a few days.

So size really doesn't matter in this. It's rather Who do you have that is Proficient and Reliable?
I have noticed this, there were 2 kind of people in my teams. Lazy bums and working horses. There was never anyone "between". No matter what I did as the manager I never could make the lazy ones do anything. No matter how I screwed up as a manager I never could hinder the motivation and efficiency of the hard working ones. There simply were people who really wanted to make games and those who only thought they wanted to make games. And all the motivation, persuasion, supervising, praising, whatever done by me had exactly zero effect.

The people in the team have to be motived by their internal desire, not by the leader. It can't work any other way.

So, yeah, I fully agree with your statement. It's not about how many people you have but about whom you have. And one person doing more than ten others is nothing unusual.
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2012, 12:30:00 AM »

I work 20 hours a week on a two man project, we use basecamp to track tasks and as a discussion forum, it's really a great bit of software. We use iChat for general chitchat and we also video chat roughly once a fortnight, this is to make sure we keep on the same track. We live on opposite sides of the planet but align our working hours to overlap for 3 or so hours.
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Chris Polus
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2012, 01:23:46 AM »

Wow this thread is getting really interesting, but it seems we all come to similar conclusions in the end.

I used to work in 4-7 people teams but I was not thrilled by the efficiency. I used a lot of time managing the team (telling who should do what, training new people, recruiting new people, writing design docs, etc, etc) in addition to my dev tasks.

I work in a 16(!) people team as the producer, and it feels like there are 6 people doing a lot, and many that just seem to look in from time to time, that I need to ask for results on a regular basis. Now, to be fair, most of the team of course works in a day job and not everyone feels like coming home and just continuing work on something else. But a little self-discipline would be nice. Tell us if you have time or if you don't so we can plan better and distribute work of important tasks in a different way.

But what really sucks about my team.. Is, I've been doing most of everyones work, and they just pick up slack and shit. Mostly because I work at a very fast pace and I don't like waiting around for anyone to finish something up. Especially when it hinders what im doing for more then a few days.

Which is the next issue in our team. Me and my friend can spend close to 100% on this project as I quit my job some time ago and he finished his studies of quantum physics. So no strings attached. The others do work and can never keep up with our pace. We have to wait a lot for things to get done, so we're thinking about getting more people, which leads to more overhead and planning and holding hands.

I have noticed this, there were 2 kind of people in my teams. Lazy bums and working horses. There was never anyone "between".

Didn't quite make the same experience, but it's close. Either you have people who really have self-discipline and believe in this project and work and deliver results, or you have people that drop in from time to time and you have to explain what was going on for the past week and constantly keep motivating to continue working. I slowly ask myself if that's worth it.

The people in the team have to be motived by their internal desire, not by the leader. It can't work any other way.

Soooo true.

So I guess one problem we all face is: if we paid people a decent sum so they could do this full time we could really DEMAND things. Deliver this model by the end of the week. Otherwise they wouldn't deserve the pay. But the issue is, I guess, we all here work for free and we believe in a project. You may have profit shares agreed with your team, but it doesn't pay them now, so nobody feels obliged. But if the game gets a success, they all would want their money, and rightly so, they worked for it. But somehow the project is the loser here. You paid them in the end, but you didn't get the dedication the project deserved.

So if we're all working for free there seems no excuse for getting motivated people and having really steep conditions under which people can join the team. Either they deliver and are motivated or you should not keep them in the team. The other dilemma is that recruiting takes so much time. We have huge problems getting people at all who like to work on a project, on a bigger team, working on a model that'll end up in the game. So we kind of like to stick with the current team, as all in our team are nice fellows, cool people, but not always that commited to the project. What are you going to do? It seems crazy kicking somebody out who knows how we work, works maybe a little slower, but you don't need to hold their hand every step of the way. Recruiting somebody else means time, they need to be introduced to the team, learn how we work, and you don't know the quality they'll deliver.

There's no ideal situation in any case. We just muddle through the best we can Smiley

We use Basecamp, it's been the best thing! It's super easy, no complicated features, just plain simple calendar, tasks and discussions.
We use Google Drive for files and documents to collaborate on (game design and stuff).
And Skype for our weekly conferences. Communication is really important, getting everybody together always gives a slight boost. But if people are not good at communicating, it's hard keeping them focused and motivated.
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2012, 06:14:17 AM »

Wrote this a while back, dunno if it helps: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=27653.0

Would suggest reading The Mythical Man-Month, about project management in software. It's a dangerous fallacy to think that you can make software go faster the more people you throw at it, when it actually slows down. The progress on any project is based on the person leading it, and the rest are just there to handle little tasks and modules.

I use Asana for project management; it covers everything I want to do. It's free and very fast to use, unlike most web apps, and helps with quick bug tracking too. Also make sure you have stuff like source control.

I think in the end, it's all about having a vision that all of you agree on. People are willing to go the distance for something they want to see, whether or not it's paid. I've done a few online games with people, and this seems to be the key.

You can put all the best developers in the same room, pick a project at random, and it just won't take off. It happens all the time with these "hey everyone, let's make a massive game" things.
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2012, 06:25:55 AM »

10 people at the same university, not so good networking, meet on the weekends sometimes



then there's my own personal team I've constructed from tigs

2 people, skype
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 09:37:46 AM »

I work as a one person team. If I need something done that I can't do I contract it out to someone, but so far I've only needed to do that with audio/music stuff. In the past I've worked with small teams, but never more than three. I always prefer email for communication, because it's asynchronous and automatically results in a permanent record.
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2012, 06:43:30 PM »

Our team has four main people, then three who work one day a week. We're actually located in a small business incubator, and it is great to be able to work together in one space!

The main team is actually made up of programmers who went to the local university, so we can do gameplay quite well, and are able to change things easily and quickly. However it can be hard to quickly rework artwork since all our artists are only in once a week.

We actually have our audio done by another company located in Sydney. They are AMAZING! Very grateful to have them on board.
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2012, 04:47:05 PM »

I work with one other person, he has a second computer that stays at my place and he comes over 9 to 5 weekdays to work.

Working in the same physical location makes collaborating really easy but has negative impacts on my life outside work,
working alone i would usually work sporadically as motivation comes and goes, i'd fit in gym, fitness etc.
Working in a consistent time block I find I'm usually burnt out at the end of it and it's far more effort to fit in running or swimming. Even though I feel less efficient I think it's still better overall for the project, given the speed we can discuss design decisions and compile work (doing this online is a terrible task).
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2012, 11:08:01 AM »

Your dev team is SO huge, the last time they had a Christmas sale, santa didnt even bother coming to town.

...

Your dev team is SO huge, they had exclusive privileges in pax... because nobody else could fit in the building.

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Your dev team is SO huge, the net income was lesser than the net cost... because most of the people who bought the game are a part of your team.

...

Your dev team is SO huge... it's not even indie anymore.

...

Your dev team is SO huge! It's current project is called humanity. They seem to be working expanding the current build.

...

Your dev team is SO huge, your games demo got the "game of the year" award.

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Your dev team is SO huge, they live on yo mama.

...

Your dev team is SO huge, they could take on the hidden fun stuff.if you understand the reference then bravo to you!

...

Your dev team is SO huge, they don't live on yo mama... they live WITH yo mama.



It had to be done.
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Chris Polus
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 03:37:43 AM »

Hehe. Fair enough  Gentleman
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Chris Koźmik
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2012, 02:33:28 AM »

I work in a 16(!) people team as the producer, and it feels like there are 6 people doing a lot, and many that just seem to look in from time to time, that I need to ask for results on a regular basis. Now, to be fair, most of the team of course works in a day job and not everyone feels like coming home and just continuing work on something else. But a little self-discipline would be nice. Tell us if you have time or if you don't so we can plan better and distribute work of important tasks in a different way.
There is *absolutely* no difference if people make a game for free or not. They either make a game or not. To make a game you need to put an effort and sheed your own sweat and blod. There is no way around it. You ARE to expect the best effort from the people who work with you for free, not being paid has nothing to do with it. Most people will say it's unreasonable, that's OK. Most people will never finish any game anyway, so what most people think is absolutely not important.

In the end it's about if you are there to hang around together in a club like fashion or if you desire to have a game done and are willing to work hard insanely enough to achieve it.

Being reasonable won't make you a game Smiley You need crazy sick insane nerds as the core team to make the game a reality Evil
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2012, 04:26:14 AM »

I have started a company with a friend of mine few months ago and we have been keeping our team small all the time. Usually just 2 of us, but sometimes we will hire 1 or 2 freelancers to help us out when needed. We don't want to spend too much time on management side. So far we are very effective as both of us are the furious horse type of persons Cheesy and because we do not have any lazy persons in our team, we don't get distracted/demotivated easily.

So far we have launched a game title, and few more which are under development, while we also secured a long term contract which we will be helping another game company to deliver 7 games for them in a year. Trust me, it's good to be in a small team.

Beer!
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