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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesIGF 2010 nominations
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Hayden Scott-Baron
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« Reply #100 on: January 07, 2010, 01:25:46 AM »

Whilst most of the feedback was well written, I was quite surprised to see one of the comments was written entirely in lower case, with swearing and each sentence written on a new line.  I find it hard to believe this was an intelligent adult specifically chosen to be an IGF judge when it looks more akin to a childish comment written on Kongregate or Youtube. I appreciate that judges have a limited amount of time, but a modicum of professionalism would not go amiss.

Do the IGF committee intend to review judge's feedback this year with regards to them being a judge in 2011?

Also, it does certainly appear that most of the judges were in a hurry when playing the games. I think developers should probably bear this in mind. It does seem that slow-paced or difficult games will probably be received less fondly by IGF.
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« Reply #101 on: January 07, 2010, 01:37:33 AM »

EDIT: Forgot about the forum netiquette not to quote the last post in the thread.

Yes... I think games that "get to the point" quickly are favoured in all kinds of competitions, and not just IGF. I took my judging task very seriously, so I made sure that I had plenty of time to play the games. Especially considering that I had two AGS games to evaluate (I made sure I had a whole evening for each).

I tried to measure how much time I spent on the games. It ranged from 5 minutes to 3 hours, with the median somewhere around 30 minutes. I'll admit that the 5-minute game was http://www.atc-sim.com/ ... sorry, but I was afraid that if I played that game any longer I would suffer from some kind of mental disease.
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« Reply #102 on: January 07, 2010, 03:03:00 AM »

The judges really hated my game, one calling it "just a variation on Burn The Rope". It scored worst in Game Design. A bit depressing really.

I guess having feedback so you know why you didn't get anywhere is good, but I'd prefer it if entering was free and you didn't get any feedback at all (I remember Simon said financially they could do this but they're worried that the amount of entrants would increase - but taking away the feedback combined with the weeder round Derek suggested might rectify it).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 03:51:03 AM by raiten » Logged
cactus
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« Reply #103 on: January 07, 2010, 03:20:04 AM »

I scored best in Visual Art and worst in Technical. Pretty reasonable, although interesting since I normally mostly get complaints from people concerning my "lo-fi" graphics... The feedback had a lot of spoilers in it, but I decided to censor the worst and post it anyway:
http://cactusquid.com/misc/tuningfeedback.rtf

I'll admit that the 5-minute game was http://www.atc-sim.com/ ... sorry, but I was afraid that if I played that game any longer I would suffer from some kind of mental disease.
Oh my god, I can see why Crazy

Looks like an instructions "game" for learning a new job, or something.
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Alexander Bruce
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« Reply #104 on: January 07, 2010, 03:23:25 AM »

Oh man. I'm not too sure how someone was going to be judging your game Raiten. Sorry to hear about the hate, though I'm not sure how it's a variation on You Have To Burn The Rope at all. They're entirely different styles of game.
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« Reply #105 on: January 07, 2010, 03:58:05 AM »

I had quite the mix of positive and negative comments - not the best when they're taking the average, but if they'd taken the maximum instead I'd have done quite well: I've given it a 100 in Overall Experience because it is a solid, innovative game that I would be incredibly happy to see win the Grand Prize.
Woo!
Also: This almost seems like a computer science teaching tutorial more than a game.  That's positive feedback, right?

Of six comments, three were two lines long.  The others contained some useful stuff though, and overall I'm satisfied with what I got, but if someone happened to get all of their comments so short that would suck.

And I scored best in Game Design, worst in Audio.  Not surprising.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 04:05:49 AM by brog » Logged
Alex May
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« Reply #106 on: January 07, 2010, 04:43:19 AM »


There's a lot of pooly-executed feedback going on in general. I don't like the one-line feedback comments - it's lazy and unhelpful.

Quote
Also, no level saves/continues? Really?
Comments like this are needlessly negative (how about "I was really frustrated with the obvious lack of save game functionality, which to me seems a fundamental oversight."). This really irritates me.

Dock, I'd love to see the childish feedback you refer to.

Judges should be writing comments that they would consider helpful if they received them themselves.
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simoniker
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« Reply #107 on: January 07, 2010, 07:12:14 AM »

So the IGF judging piece is up now in a few places, including:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26685/Opinion_Demystifying_the_IGF_Judging_Process.php

Jens originally asked to write this because he felt strongly about explaining the process he went through as a judge, and Alex and Mike added to it along the way. Thanks to all of them.

Regarding amount and quality of comments - we reviewed all the comments before sending them out, and we will certainly further consider the quality of them in inviting judges back.

In general, we've been getting very positive feedback about the comments, especially from the smaller developers who maybe haven't even found their way to TIGSource and aren't so community-connected as the folks here, and need even more help understanding their place in the indiesphere than you folks.

Ta,
Simon@IGF.
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Alexander Bruce
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« Reply #108 on: January 07, 2010, 07:39:53 AM »

Thanks for that article. It was a good read, and transparency is always most appreciated.
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« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2010, 08:19:20 AM »

Eversion scored best in:  Audio

And scored worst in:  Technical

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A solid, challenging puzzle-platformer.  I found myself enjoying the difficult platforming sections more than the puzzles - none of them felt like they had genuinely clever solutions, they were either very obvious or I'd just fiddle around until it worked.

Decent pixel art, but not blown away.  With a retro look like this, I think you need to do something very cool stylistically to get attention.  There are just too many pixel games (esp platformers) coming out of the tigsource crowd these days, it's kind of lost its charm.

I did really like some of the nice extra touches, though.  The gloomy "Get ready!" messages in the darker worlds were a nice bit of dark humor, and really fit the game well.

The music was a bit annoying to me, which was especially nasty because I needed sound to know where I could evert. :/  Obviously a matter of taste, but it was really shrill.  I did really like the IDEA of having distinct music to match each subworld, though.

Anyway, overall a fun, interesting game, just didn't do anything that blew me away.  Good luck!


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Pros: Adorable characters, cute artistic direction, and the music and imaginations all seemed to fit together.

Cons: The tuning of the design seemed to contradict the experience of the music & artistic direction. While the world design seemed to be innocent and naive, the design was tuned to be very, very hard. In two hours I had reached World 4, but with only by muscling through a lot of frustration and cursing. And it doesn't seem like frustration is the point of the experience.

The Evert mechanic itself wasn't very innovative, and while I enjoyed the change of scenery, didn't ultimately impact my play style. Currently, it seems that there's confusion between design and creative direction, which will need to be resolved for this game to be an engaging experience.

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I really like the idea of having the environment (and its traversability) change based on the Evert power.  I find, though, that the few gameplay mechanics in this game bring very little to the table, as most of these ideas are straight up derivations of the Mario Bros. series: the platforming, the stomping on enemies via jump, changing of blocks when you activate a power (see SMB3 and the power block that changes bricks into coins).  I also found some of the level design frustrating, in particular, level 4-5 with the hands shooting up between ditches.  Some levels, I was all too happy to complete without really trying for the gems I had left behind, just to get them over with.

Still, it is not a bad effort.

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This is one of the creepiest games that I have ever played. While the visual art starts off cheery enough, it quickly descends into the sort of madness that actually forced me to get up every once in a while during my play time.

The design is the strongest point of this game by far. The puzzle-like mechanic of everting combined with the creepy degradation of the game world is a stark contrast to similar games like Mario. Saying that this game is like Mario meets Lovecraft would not be an invalid description, but the way the game pulls it off is excellent.

The two endings are both creepy and amazing at the same time. However, I almost wish that there was another ending or two, although none that end on a positive note (to reinforce the negativity of the game).

The audio is the strongest point, which is to be expected from a game with this theme. The music is both compelling and disturbing, depending on what world you are on, and the sound effects fit.

The biggest complaints that I have about this game are that it is short and that the visual art could use some refinement, at least in the earlier worlds. The eversion mechanic is only just finished being explored when the game ends. However, the deconstruction of the retro nostalgia present in all gamers above a certain age is a great theme explored to an amazing artistic effect. That isn't to say that it is the intended theme, but the possibility for interpretation makes this one of the more artistic games I've played in the competition so far.

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At first I thought I was the one with a "nervous disposition", but soon I got into it.  A very nice twist on Mario platform game, funny, it takes a while to figure out! The chiptune soundtrack is splendid, so are visual details. I got stuck in world 4, I wish I had some cheats...

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Eversion is a fun little playable platformer, with clear thought given to level design and overall player experience.

My main feedback for you is to reconsider the "secret" nature of the eversion action - since it is what makes the game interesting, you want your players to know how to implement it. Possibly, the early visual cues are more obvious, and then get progressively more subtle.

Nice work overall. Best of luck in the competition.



So basically:

- It's a platformer and I'm sick of those
- It's too derivative (The eversion mechanic obviously having been implemented previously in TIME FCUK)
- It's too hard to finish
- It's too hard to finish with 100% so I felt like I didn't want to get 100% and this is SOMEHOW A PROBLEM
- It's not long enough
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 08:38:25 AM by Zaratustra » Logged

Terry
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« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2010, 08:39:11 AM »

I really thought Eversion was a shoe in for Design Excellence. Genuinely shocked at that feedback.
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Alec
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« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2010, 08:40:00 AM »

I wonder if having more judges means a higher number of stupid judges.
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seregrail7
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« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2010, 08:43:06 AM »

My feedback was all good(not positive but constructive and helpful) apart from this one which annoyed me:

Quote
This game reminds me of Castle Crashers. It's a decent game design but with very weak art direction and the sound is so intrusive that it made me not want to play very long.

My suggestions would include to get rid of the walking sounds (or make them far more subtle) and overall work on the visual and audio style of the game.

Very very short feedback, one bit of advice on the sound and then saying "make the art better" is pretty much of no use to me. I have no idea what he/she disliked about the art and ways to improve this, and considering every other judge was mostly positive about the art this bit of feedback was even more irrelevant.

The other pieces of feedback were good though, explaining what they think would improve the gameplay and art and sound and so on. I guess it's unfortunately random whether or not you get judges with an interest in giving good feedback.
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KommanderKlobb
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« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2010, 08:54:23 AM »

Here's our feedback (for Kahoots). I was pretty happy with it overall - mostly pretty fair, and in some cases helpful and encouraging:

Kahoots scored best in:  Audio

And scored worst in:  Technical

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KAHOOTS
Goes through the motions of iterative design in that it takes a single puzzle mechanic and grows on it with every level. However, the game comes off very simplistic and is a bit annoying.

DESIGN NOTES
Kahoots does a good job following the theory and formula of what makes a good puzzle game, however the result is something less than satisfying. The core mechanic of tile swapping isn't very compelling, and to make matters worse, the execution of that mechanic is underdeveloped. The game does a good job of introducing new elements at every level, however these bits of goodness are overshadowed by the annoyances. For example, the lack of the ability to change the direction of our fair hero. A simple click on his body should control this. This would mitigate the rather infuriating wait for the little bugger to reach the end of a row and turn around when I've already figured out what tiles to move where. Waiting when you know the solution to something really sucks. On a somewhat related note, there should be a pause button in the game.

Beyond this, there are a few UI issues to bear in mind. At the end of each level, the buttons all look very similar, with "next level" buried at the bottom. Color and scaling would have made a big impact here, allowing a bright and clear "next level" button that stands out and beckons the user on. On a somewhat similar note, the ability of the main character to slip behind the control widget (where restart, sound toggle, and quit options are located) seems weird.

VISUAL NOTES
The attempt at a warm and cute design style is noticed, but a bit short. The style seems unnecessarily varied, from the claymation-style main character to the yarn and buttons Pegbeast. If these are truly things found behind the couch, perhaps more of that theme would be in order? Why the blocks as they are? Why not a collection of sofa detritus (sock puppets, paper clips, crumbs...with the blocks as candy, or something like that)? Not positive what would be best, however, this comes off as hodgepodge that could have used stronger art direction.

AUDIO NOTES
Simple and squeaky sound effects. They don't come off as cute or punchy, which I believe was the intent. However, they serve there purpose in adding to the flavor of the game and conveying supplemental information to the player.

TECHNICAL NOTES
For the most part, the coding seems solid. The game runs well and the menus are responsive. Good load times. The only issue I came across was taking a trap door directly down to a finish gate, which did not register. The game's engineering scope is simple, but done capably.

OVERALL
I encourage the developer to keep making games. Even though I didn't love Kahoots it shows that its maker understands game theory and is hot on the trail of making something fantastic. Keep it up!

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Very interesting gameplay and cool atmosphere, my inner child totally approves of this game Smiley

Pegbeast's songs are maybe one of the awesomest tutorials ever.


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I love the world-wrapping! I don't think I've seen a lead-the-minions sort of game with that. It add nice flavor to the puzzles.

On level 18, the little Mochi Register/login buttons cover up tiles that I'd like to swap around in the lower left.

Including the lessons learned on the level select screen is a great idea! Knowing which levels introduced which blocks is a nice touch.

The click-and-drag on the level-select screen doesn't always work for me, it seems unreliable somehow.

I like the block-shifting idea. I think the instructions called it "swapping", but it's more of a shift.

The pegbeast is a great idea, as are the cardborgs (i.e. moving obstacles).

I hope the premium levels work well with your fans!

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Kahoots beautifully combines currently trendy 'handmade' aesthetics (a la LittleBigPlanet) with the wit and deviousness of an old school British platformer. It's full of auxilary touches, like the rapping peg creature, that add practically nothing to the gameplay, but masses to the overall effect and warmth of the experience.

I suppose the only downside is that the foreground platform graphics aren't quite as stylised and impactful as the backgrounds, front end and peripheral visuals, but that's it really.

Can see lots of potential here for co-op play and user-generated content. But even as it is, it's the sort of game that you just want to tell everyone about, because it exudes the joy of game design.

Great stuff.

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The best thing with this game is the Pegbeast!!!
The gameplay is OK. I actually like the idea but it doesn?t really click for me. Sometimes I can?t see where the character will fall down which makes things feel very unfair. Also I dont really like the indirect control in this kind of context.
The art is a bit unpolished; I think is needs to be more coherent and crisper.

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Great game, very understandable and appealing.  Love the Pegbeast between each level and the voice acting, as well as the other audio.  I like the way the map looks like the levels themselves; the only complaint I have is that the Kahoot is a little too slow!

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Rehash of an old mechanic with not much novelty. Art definitely needs polish, voice & music become a little too repetitive after some time. The goal for something like this would be to enhance or build upon the base mechanic with more creative gameplay ideas.

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Good puzzle game, I wish there was a way to auto-advance between the levels, I wanted to play it much more frantically (but that's just me).

Seems like a lot of fun through the first few levels when you are learning the game, I tried to go back to it a few times and found that, for me, it had little staying power.  For people that love this kind of game, it may have more.



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« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2010, 08:55:50 AM »

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I wonder if having more judges means a higher number of stupid judges.
Very, very likely.

I think it would be cool to be able to submit your game early for a first round of judging, then receive the feedback, spend a few weeks polishing away what's causing problems for the judges before you get to the final judging (possibly from a different set of judges).

I mean, if your game gets trashed because you don't have a screen telling the player the controls (or some small problem like that), it feels a bit harsh to have to wait another year before you can send a version with this fixed.
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2010, 08:57:20 AM »

Quote
Also, no level saves/continues? Really?
Comments like this are needlessly negative (how about "I was really frustrated with the obvious lack of save game functionality, which to me seems a fundamental oversight."). This really irritates me.

"- Great game. I would have given overall experience a higher rating, but without the option to pause or save my progress I was left a little disappointed.  I'd like to return to it, but don't really want to re-do all the earlier levels just to get back to the one I was having trouble with, especially when I was getting rather far in it."

in my game, there was pause, and no save function (but there was a "level skip" debug cheat, I put it all in the readme)

I was actually surprised at a lot of the negative feedback I got, considering how well it did nomination-wise
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Bennett
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« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2010, 08:58:47 AM »

I wonder if having more judges means a higher number of stupid judges.

Of course it does, that's what a democracy is!
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scarybug
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« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2010, 09:00:05 AM »

How can they say Eversion was derivative of Time Fuck? Both games came out in the same year, which means it's a pretty good chance they came up with the idea independent a long time ago. Making a game takes time!
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Alec
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« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2010, 09:02:43 AM »

I wonder if having more judges means a higher number of stupid judges.

Of course it does, that's what a democracy is!

 Beer!
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2010, 09:06:21 AM »

for shits and giggles here's my feedback. I'll bold comments I found interesting (either cause they're good or they're just weird/wrong)

Closure scored best in:  Technical

And scored worst in:  Game Design

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Awesome. I really enjoyed the Flash version, and this one is far more polished. An interesting new mechanic, and Tyler does a lot of interesting things with it.

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A really fantastic concept, but handled in a pretty repetitive and awkward way. Since you can't see your avatar outside of the light, the game constantly asks you to make blind, uninformed jumps, and not in an interesting leap-of-faith sort of way. Most of the levels didn't really show me anything new beyond adding new challenge mechanics, which, in and of themselves, didn't really add much (contrasted against something like Braid, where every new mechanic completely changed one's understanding and method of play).

Most of the levels are too restart-heavy or focused around following moving lights, which just isn't that satisfying; the constant death and focus on keeping up with the moving lights means that you're not really given much chance to truly explore the mechanics with any degree of safety or freedom. You just have to die a shitload of times to get a trial-and-error solution to the puzzle, which gets irritating.

---

Visually, Closure is very appealing, and the core concept is fresh and interesting. But though it's technically more than proficient, it's let down by design with logic that can be difficult to divine. Why can't you put a key or orb down anywhere? Why are only certain orb stands linked together?

Moreover, puzzles which involve physics heavily often glitch out or feel unstable unless you exactly follow the intended path. Too often, too, you're forced to restart levels because you miss a timed challenge or mess up some very complex sequences of actions. It's also a little let down by rough edges: you can trap boxes up against walls, enforcing a restart, or set down a key too close to an orb, meaning you have difficulty picking up the object you intend to.

Closure is close to being great, though - it's atmospheric and the sound and animation, combined with the beautiful visual style, go a long way to relieving some of these irritations.

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- Great game. I would have given overall experience a higher rating, but without the option to pause or save my progress I was left a little disappointed.  I'd like to return to it, but don't really want to re-do all the earlier levels just to get back to the one I was having trouble with, especially when I was getting rather far in it.

- game has a great visual style and ambiance. 

- very clever & original gameplay concept as well.

- loved the detail of the character animation. 

- game really needs a pause option.also, to access my computer to take notes, I wound up having to close the game and lose my progress each time. eventually I stopped trying to make notes.


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CLOSURE
A great indie title that explores not only an interesting theme, but novel gameplay as well.

DESIGN NOTES
I found this game similar to Unfinished Swan and a few other indie experiments based around the manipulation of light to guide the way. What I found most provocative about Closure, however, is the concept, ?if you can?t see it, it doesn?t exist.‰ I think this has a lot of interesting implications and is fun to philosophize about as the game is played and discussed.

The design of the game feels adequate. I feel it is lacking mostly in the field of level creation. Each „board‰ is rather quick and not as clever as I feel it could have been. I enjoyed the iterative introduction of new mechanics, from orbs, to spots, to water, etc, and found everything very clear and intuitive, however I was never „wowed‰ by the puzzles. In that regard it felt very simple and I think there are some really interesting things you could potentially do with the concept and core mechanic.

As a side note, while I accepted the falling to my doom when touching blackness, the standing on the circle of light seemed a bit cheesy.

VISUAL NOTES
When I first loaded „Closure‰ I was instantly grabbed by its look. I love the IGF intro screen and the way the game background was used to convey information. It reminded me a bit of a monochromatic version of World of Goo, in a sense. The animation was good and the environments in general were consistent and uniquely imagined. I thoroughly enjoyed the artistic flavor here.

AUDIO NOTES
Well done audio. Moody, inquisitive, and apt music help compliment the games look. Other items (character and UI) seemed appropriate and came off as transparent ˆ not bad, but nothing extremely innovative (not that it needed to be).

TECHNICAL NOTES
Aside from the clumsy install and setup process, the game worked very well. My play session was stable with no identifiable bugs. I enjoyed the 360 Controller support as well. The high resolution added to my enjoyment.

OVERALL
Closure is a strong entry with a provocative theme and interesting gameplay. With better levels and even more innovation, this could be a real hit on console and PC. Keep it up!


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I have played the flash game previously and am impressed with the visual and gameplay mechanic improvements that have taken place since the release of that. Closure ramps up nicely from the beginning, through the tutorial phases - then again with the introduction of each new element. It is frustrating at times if you hit a wall and cannot figure out a solution, but I guess that is part of this type of exploratory puzzle experience. If there was some way to build in a hint system of some sort, it would be great to see - but I am sure there will be websites that will provide faqs or walkthroughs...

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A really awesome, well thought-out game - nice use of audio, clever design, and an individualistic, enjoyable title. Thanks for submitting!

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