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[Anna]

I also realize that a bunch of dudes arguing about what makes a good role model for girls is pretty silly.

Because only women understand how women think, right? They're so confusing and emotional!

Honestly, we're all capable of evaluating social situations as human beings, not just as defined by our traditional gender roles. Don't you think it's a bit bigoted to assume that men are unable to evaluate the social repercussions of our actions as they relate to women?

I want to agree with you, I Like Cake, but gender socialization runs deep. It's hard to step outside of this paradigm because we've never known anything different. We've all been trained into our respective roles from birth. It takes a lot of work to overcome it.

[Movius]

In the words of a great man.

"...oh and by the way, women are all the same."

[Anna]

I have another problem: the lack of unattractive female characters. Most of them fit a very narrow standard of beauty. I would like to see more average or even ugly female characters. Here are some related points:

Lack of muscle definition - even the strong characters appear to be somewhat emaciated, even after you account for the fact that female bodies are generally less suited to building muscle.

Lack of scars and other physical deformations.

Lack of "monstrous" female characters - to use SCII again, think female version of Necrid or Nightmare.

Lack of variation in ages and body types - where are the older women? The fat women? The hairy women? Where is the female equivalent of Mario??

[Chris Whitman]

No, I thought it was a bit bigoted to assume we knew what women would be offended by without actually having any involved in the conversation. You know, the traditional gender role of "I know what is best for you, Honey".

Feeling that both men and women are entirely capable of judging what is good for one another is not the same as feeling that only men are capable of deciding what is good for a woman. I know what offends me as a crass depiction of a person or group of people. Being a man does not preclude me from coming to a reasonable conclusion about that, even if the subject is a woman.

So yes, I think it is bigoted to suggest that men are unable to discuss gender issues that relate to women. I'm not accusing you of being a bigot, if that isn't what you're suggesting, but if that isn't what you're suggesting, what are you complaining about?

I wouldn't either, but I was referring towards Jade from beyond Good and Evil, and the like. Sexy =/= sexualized.

That is definitely true, but I think you're talking quite a bit about the very small number of people insisting that absolutely everything a man does in depicting a women in sexist, to the exclusion of the real problem that the game industry still harbours a lot of very real casual sexism as part of what is really a more extreme problem, and that is the encouragement of unhealthy social viewpoints to sell more games.

Obviously there are nutcases, that doesn't make real gender discrimination any less of an issue.

But hey, if you want to paint me as a bigot who loves them titties hiding up in his club house, you would be misrepresenting me, but go ahead, I guess.

Likewise, if you would like to paint me as being on a crazy witch hunt for political correctness, go nuts!

[Corpus]

Four words:

• Political correctness.
• Credit crunch.

[Shoot-em-upper]

Where is the female equivalent of Mario??

[the_dannobot]

i think games need more female leads with luxurious, well-groomed facial hair. 
What could be stronger or more non-sexual than a female lead with an elegant, flowing mustachio? 

edit:

foooooor example
doax is the worst video game ever made
this would be the best video game ever made:


Tina is particularly dapper with a generous application of Errol Flynn
she looks like she's ready to buckle some swash

[team_q]

Words words words words.

I think, at the end of the day, we are all fighting on the same side here. I think I was more looking for different female opinion then saying that we are shooting in the dark here. For example, the woman with the lollipop still from GTA4, a dude on another message board described his wifes reaction as one of disgust, to the point where she left the room. The same scene, at my house? My girlfriend asked simply "Hey, is that your Girlfriend?" 

Anyway, where in mainstream video games are the really strong role models for men? I mean unless you consider the personality traits of aggression, greed and dominance to be desirable.

[Anna]

Anyway, where in mainstream video games are the really strong role models for men? I mean unless you consider the personality traits of aggression, greed and dominance to be desirable.

I think this might make an interesting thread. It seems to me that socially acceptable roles have not broadened for men as much as they have for women. (Although gender is still far too restrictive to everyone.)

Where is the female equivalent of Mario??

Haha, the first cover is actually kind of kickass

[Inane]

Anyway, where in mainstream video games are the really strong role models for men? I mean unless you consider the personality traits of aggression, greed and dominance to be desirable.

Most games that aren't first person shooters or platformers have non-overly aggressive male leads. I mean, not a lot of them are great role models, but I think the macho-manbaby stereotype isn't used that often. Final Fantasy Tactics, for example, Ramza is an inquisitive, courageous, and noble soldier who questions those in charge at every turn (though he's still responsible for the majority of dead people in the game :D). There's also River City Ransom, where the main characters just want some fucking sushi and booklets.

[Robotacon]

The problem is that the graphic design people are horny bastards, even the female ones. Go to a place like Polycount and be prepared to stare up some 3D coochie.

[Calanctus]

I have another problem: the lack of unattractive female characters. Most of them fit a very narrow standard of beauty.

This. This. This times a million.

I realize a fat middle-aged housewife isn't a very badass or romantic figure, but come on. The variety of people in real life is a huge part of what makes it interesting. And having people like that in your story is going to help the badasses and the romantics stand out better.

Besides, sometimes you tire of fantasy and comic book cliches and you want a story or setting that's a little more prosaic.

[Eclipse]

i LOVE Giana. It's a shameless rip-off but that game is better than mario

[flynna]

Although I do not beleive in women having realistic body shapes, where would he fun be in playing a lead character who was monstrously obese (male or female), had an IQ of exactly 51.9, and who is 1.9 Metres tall?

Average Person, by theway

I have played only one game with a grossly obese (Man? Woman?) person in it, Pol, and do not want to repeat the experience.

[Hideous]

Bwahaha. The average person is extremely stupid.

[ptoing]

i LOVE Giana. It's a shameless rip-off but that game is better than mario

I grew up with a C64 and played GGS before SMB and love it too. But objectively SMB is the better game. The controls in GGS are way worse, there is less variation (like cloud secrets and underwater levels), way less interesting enemy types. I think you are suffering from pink nostaliga glasses here.

Sorry for OT.

[increpare]

Although I do not beleive in women having realistic body shapes, where would he fun be in playing a lead character who was monstrously obese (male or female), had an IQ of exactly 51.9, and who is 1.9 Metres tall?

And what's the point in playing a game with a perfectly perfect character?  As my old mate the Marquis de Sade used to say appreciatively, there is only one way to be beautiful, but there are many ways to be ugly.  :D

My point is, you seem to be emphasising the lack of variety of 'normal' people, when in fact one particular problem I have is that there is little variety in terms of the female characters one plays.  Calling for more realistic body proportions and gender-rolls amounts to a call for diversity as much as a call for gender-equality.

[Moosader]

Again, not indie, but Samus from the Metroid Prime games is nicely  non T-and-A'd (although the 2D games did have the whole stripping for high scores thing).

I see capital Ts and As.

I had always liked Samus, but when Brawl had that, I was pretty disappointed.  I kind of see it as "selling out".
Really the main females that bother me in video games are the ones like the lady you guys keep posting pictures of, or like the DoA girls.  I haven't played either of those games, but I don't really care to.
It always kind of ticks me off when I see a scantily clad woman running through snowy mountains and such.  I always like joking about iron bikini armor.  Because we all know the nipples and crotch are more important than the heart, head, or... anything else. o.0;

Some women I like in video games are:
* Jade from Beyond good and evil (I hope the new game doesn't give her a new dress style)
* Meryl and Emma from Metal Gear Solid
* Alyx from Half Life 2
* Maya, Selena, and Led from Septerra Core (a CRPG nobody's ever heard of)
* Paulette from Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits
* Rinoa from FF8
... On that note, women in FF have been dressed pretty well up until lately, with X-2 and XII. :s  Rinoa, Selphie, Quistis, Aeris, maybe not so much Tifa (though she's not dressed too badly), and Yuna (FFX) haven't been sporting mini-skirts and such.  But ugh, FFXII.

On the issue of men in games, I feel it's a bit like television (only the guys are still generally more attractive), where you can have ugly fat guys on TV, but almost all women are beautiful (ala fat redneck married to a hot blonde sitcom).

I don't really recall any games off-hand where you play as an ugly man, but they're more present in the world.  You could consider Abe and Munch to be ugly.. men... :O

[Bree]

Unfortunately, the Zero Suit was originally introduced on one of the handheld games. Not sure if the laser whip thing was included, but it means that you'll have to blame somebody else for that creation. I personally dislike the suit, but I find it hilarious because it seems to be the only way that non-Nintendo geeks figure out that Samus is a woman. I always found that one of the best parts of Metroid- whoever came up with that deserves a medal.

I can recall one game where you play as an intentionally ugly man:


But that's really it.

[Xion]

It always kind of ticks me off when I see a scantily clad woman running through snowy mountains and such.

Yes! That is possibly one of the most annoying things to me about grrls in gamez. I don't really mind the boobies - girls have them. But when they fail to protect their vitals in favor of barely-decent, if even that, armor... . If you're going for armor wear it where it's useful! If you're going to dress for "flexibility" and "manoeuvrability" don't bother with metal parts! On crotches! And boobies!