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[MoritzPGKatz]

You answered that yourself: the file size benefit is pretty insignificant when clients look for realistic music with samples and recordings. Which is mostly the case, except in the afore-mentioned retro niche.

true... however, that niche does happen to be where most people on this forum do their work. My impression is we're discussing things in the context of small-team independent games, though perhaps i misunderstood.

I'm not composing for very large (or well-funded) teams either at the moment, and most of my clients are asking for tracks with 'real' instruments, be it a recorded guitar, orchestral scores or a realistic-sounding piano, or even vocals. I'd find it hard to do any of that with a tracker.

Everyone should use what tools they like best, but when I collaborate with other musicians or present my work, I stick to sequencers and deliver waveforms. It's pretty much the standard.

the last semi-mainstream game that i can recall using them was 'uplink' by introversion. i think they should be used more, they are pretty cool and allow some things that the normal mp3/ogg/wav format does not, such as disabling or enabling particular instruments in reaction to the gameplay (the way getting on yoshi would add in the percussion track in super mario world). i feel that if you want to make your music more interactive, then ogg/mp3 isn't as suitable for that need

Actually, my main project makes much use of interactive music. (can't tell you much, NDA secrecy )
Let me just say that it is indeed possible (and not much more of a hassle) to implement waveform music that changes depending on what's happening in the game, just like you described.
I mentioned iMUSE before, Lucasarts' interactive music streaming engine, which was introduced 20 years ago with Monkey Island 2. More recent examples would be the Elder Scrolls series starting with Morrowind.

[DavidCaruso]

I like the tracker format for composing more than piano roll or w/e, probably because I'm not too well versed in music theory so I'm coming at this from a programmer's perspective. Except for file size I don't know if there are any real huge benefits to the actual module formats themselves, though. That's not to say they can't sound good anyway, see e.g. Deus Ex.

[1982]

You answered that yourself: the file size benefit is pretty insignificant when clients look for realistic music with samples and recordings. Which is mostly the case, except in the afore-mentioned retro niche.

Tracker music / electronic has nothing to do with retro niche. I could as well say that most of the modern VG music is all about retro romantic music niche.

[MoritzPGKatz]

You answered that yourself: the file size benefit is pretty insignificant when clients look for realistic music with samples and recordings. Which is mostly the case, except in the afore-mentioned retro niche.

Tracker music / electronic has nothing to do with retro niche. I could as well say that most of the modern VG music is all about retro romantic music niche.

Guess you could say that!
But then you'd be missing the point that most tracker music takes its retro-nostalgia from times where VGM was restricted by filesize, bit resolution, sampling frequency etc. - while the increase in orchestral 'post-romantic' music in games is caused by film music's influence and the easy availability of tools to create music like that.
Sure, you can do 'modern' productions with the trackers available today (like Renoise), but there are still some major restrictions in the tracker format, the biggest one is not being able to record audio properly. Then there's comping, automation, notation, warping... the list goes on.

Again, I'm not trying to talk anyone out of their tools. OP asked how common tracker formats are: I'm just pointing out the fact that music done with sequencers (and that includes most electronica, by the way) greatly outweighs music done with trackers. Even in VGM, and even in indie developing teams.

[1982]

Guess you could say that!
But then you'd be missing the point that most tracker music takes its retro-nostalgia from times where VGM was restricted by filesize, bit resolution, sampling frequency etc. - while the increase in orchestral 'post-romantic' music in games is caused by film music's influence and the easy availability of tools to create music like that.
Sure, you can do 'modern' productions with the trackers available today (like Renoise), but there are still some major restrictions in the tracker format, the biggest one is not being able to record audio properly. Then there's comping, automation, notation, warping... the list goes on.

I am not missing the point, I say that 99% modern tracker music takes its inspiration from old VGM. And they solely take the inspiration from technical aspects, and NOT from the actual compositions (which I think are in many cases exceptionally great). It is comparable to situation where live instrument band takes it inspiration from 1920's jazz recordings, but they only reproduce the "bad audio quality" from eras album recordings while actually ignoring the original music. I don't have a lot respect for technical execution being absolute value. That is wrong with modern tracker/retro music, but the blame is not in tracker software itself.

This problem is quite bad in modern film scoring as well, and seems like VGM is imitating the problem. It is not better situation than tracker-retroism. Film music (orchestral) culture has quite blatantly being dumbing down whole genre of classical music, making it sort of disposal bubblegum music. There is no reason for video game culture to imitate that crap.

Either being SID-chip or classical orchestra. It is all about compositions and experiments and what you do with the tools. It is all about making great music.

Like said, modular music is perfect format for complex music story telling in games. Being able to real time mix and re mix the tracks and loops. That gives value for tracker composing itself, but also for video games being more complex interactive storytelling media and not just empty imitation of lousy film culture.

[MoritzPGKatz]

I don't have a lot respect for technical execution being absolute value. That is wrong with modern tracker/retro music, but the blame is not in tracker software itself.

Let me put it this way: why should I use tools that limit my capabilities as a musician, e.g. recording a live instrument? If I used trackers, I'd force myself to those limitations, which, I'll grant you that, can in fact be pretty healthy sometimes - VGM composers of the early days accomplished great things by overcoming technical obstacles. But that shouldn't be the workflow anybody should be aiming for if they intend to put any musical idea going on in their heads down.

Like said, modular music is perfect format for complex music story telling in games. Being able to real time mix and re mix the tracks and loops. That gives value for tracker composing itself, but also for video games being more complex interactive storytelling media and not just empty imitation of lousy film culture.

Then let me repeat myself too: technical advancements have made it pretty easy to do that with waveform audio as well, which eliminates that advantage for me. You can render the stems of a track and mix them anyway you like (cross-fade, filter, reverb, pan...) by using simple scripts.

This problem is quite bad in modern film scoring as well, and seems like VGM is imitating the problem. It is not better situation than tracker-retroism. Film music (orchestral) culture has quite blatantly being dumbing down whole genre of classical music, making it sort of disposal bubblegum music. There is no reason for video game culture to imitate that crap.

Either being SID-chip or classical orchestra. It is all about compositions and experiments and what you do with the tools. It is all about making great music.

Fully agree with you on all points you mentioned here.
There's always art and product (crap), and it can be quite difficult to draw a straight line between the two.

[1982]

Let me put it this way: why should I use tools that limit my capabilities as a musician, e.g. recording a live instrument? If I used trackers, I'd force myself to those limitations, which, I'll grant you that, can in fact be pretty healthy sometimes - VGM composers of the early days accomplished great things by overcoming technical obstacles. But that shouldn't be the workflow anybody should be aiming for if they intend to put any musical idea going on in their heads down.

That was not what I meant. And it was not targeted to musicians working with DAW systems because they are completely neutral from technical stand point. It was targeted mainly for retro chip musicians who value the technical side of chip music more than the actual musical side. They usually think that it is the chip or technical restrictions that make the music good. While in most cases it produces distinctive sound(s) like any instrument does, it doesn't really make the music automatically good. They completely ignore the input of composer, whom in some cases are really great and true musicians. Fact is that most of the old VGM are unbearable crap, while the best of that music compare to any masterpieces in any genre of music. I mostly talk about C64/NES music, I don't have so much experience from other systems.

Btw, you will likely run into problems with dynamically scripted waveform music if there are memory restrictions. Such way would lead into massive usage of both physical and RAM memory if used extensively. Also what I've read, real time audio processing with added effects require surprising amounts of processing power. We don't have "GPU's" for audio yet. But then again, most of the modern games are only about graphics so processors can be almost fully used for audio processing

[s0]

Fact is that most of the old VGM are unbearable crap, while the best of that music compare to any masterpieces in any genre of music. I mostly talk about C64/NES music, I don't have so much experience from other systems.

I agree. Not sure if it compares to masterpieces of other genres but whatever.

I think 8bit-era VGM composers (well the GOOD ones anyway) were more creative because they weren't trying to make music according to the "chiptune" formula but were simply soundtracking videogames. As soon as something becomes a formula, the original spark of creativity tends to disappear.

[1982]

I think 8bit-era VGM composers (well the GOOD ones anyway) were more creative because they weren't trying to make music according to the "chiptune" formula but were simply soundtracking videogames. As soon as something becomes a formula, the original spark of creativity tends to disappear.

Well said

[johntorkington]

I suppose I should have foreseen the cussing and discussing over this topic : ) I think I've got the answer to my original question, though, so thanks for all your responses. I'll probably stick with honing on my sequencer abilities unless I get a specific project that needs something else.

[MoritzPGKatz]

I suppose I should have foreseen the cussing and discussing over this topic : ) I think I've got the answer to my original question, though, so thanks for all your responses. I'll probably stick with honing on my sequencer abilities unless I get a specific project that needs something else.

This means I won! Yay!

Joking, of course!

You can't beat a nice discussion - and I admit I might not have paid the tracker scene enough attention, there seem to be quite a lot of you here. It's always healthy for all forms of productive work to have different approaches.
I might want to try out some of the new tracker DAWs myself now for inspiration, there has been quite some improvement and new stuff in the last years. I'll probably be awful at working with them at first, but as soon as I've done something, can I count on your feedback?

Cheers!

[PaulForey]

In my experience, synthesis or tracker-style sampling does give you more interactivity than waveforms, even if you're using stuff like dynamic mixing between loops of different intensity. Stuff like that does sound great, but it's still limited because you still have no control over stuff that happens before rendering. When you say we've come a long was since iMuse I presume that you're meaning dynamic mixing and FMOD type stuff?

With synthesis and trackers you can change the tempo according to player actions, or you can change the base octave/key or apply weird filter effects/whatever on different instruments (though that last one is easy to do on waveforms if you have the memory budget for all the different stems). You can do fun stuff like having a certain sample, sound or effect being triggered/changed pseudo-randomly, and changing the different probabilities according to player actions.

In a recent flash game I was doing the music for (using the SiON library), I had it so that whenever the player wasn't touching the ground (it was a platforming game) the lead synth line gained portamento. If there's a way to do that with waveforms, I'd like to know it.

Obviously at the moment these sorts of effects are either gimmicky or unnoticeable, but I'm hoping that the tools, techniques and results will continue to evolve.

To actually wander on topic, I have the so-far unrepresented opinion of hating tracker-style interfaces but loving the tracker file format. I use DAWs for waveform work, code for other stuff.

[archagon]

Some of the best music in history was written for a tiny number of relatively simple voices, particularly polyphonic works. (Incidentally, this is something I've rarely heard in tracker music. I wish it were more common, because it's perfectly suited to the genre!) Take the Well-Tempered Clavier, for instance. It's a work that was carefully composed to be performed on the harpsichord, an instrument with no dynamics. And yet, that somehow seems to work in its favor: with no more than (typically) 3 or 4 voices sounding at a time, it ends up being one of the most complex works ever written. So forgive me if I don't see trackers as a significant limitation!

Quite frankly, very few orchestral soundtracks have touched me nearly as much as the simple, bloopy tunes of yore -- and not just because of nostalgia. It's easy to disguise crappy songwriting with lavish orchestration, but when it's just you, a couple of jagged waves, and a noise channel, every single bit counts. Not to mention, tracker music has a distinct sound that I've never heard replicated in any other genre.

Too much control is, I feel, a false advantage. I find that I'm most creative when I'm limited in my expressiveness.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: would the "best" work written without the limitations of a tracker be better than the "best" work written using a tracker? I don't think so. They're just different tools.

[MoritzPGKatz]

In my experience, synthesis or tracker-style sampling does give you more interactivity than waveforms, even if you're using stuff like dynamic mixing between loops of different intensity. Stuff like that does sound great, but it's still limited because you still have no control over stuff that happens before rendering. When you say we've come a long was since iMuse I presume that you're meaning dynamic mixing and FMOD type stuff?

With synthesis and trackers you can change the tempo according to player actions, or you can change the base octave/key or apply weird filter effects/whatever on different instruments (though that last one is easy to do on waveforms if you have the memory budget for all the different stems). You can do fun stuff like having a certain sample, sound or effect being triggered/changed pseudo-randomly, and changing the different probabilities according to player actions.

Yes, there are some things that are easier to do with tracker format than with FMOD etc., I agree. I'd love to see the games that do use tracker music take more advantage of those capabilities.

Some of the best music in history was written for a tiny number of relatively simple voices, particularly polyphonic works. (Incidentally, this is something I've rarely heard in tracker music. I wish it were more common, because it's perfectly suited to the genre!) Take the Well-Tempered Clavier, for instance. It's a work that was carefully composed to be performed on the harpsichord, an instrument with no dynamics. And yet, that somehow seems to work in its favor: with no more than (typically) 3 or 4 voices sounding at a time, it ends up being one of the most complex works ever written. So forgive me if I don't see trackers as a significant limitation!

I get where you're coming from, but your comparison is a bit far-fetched. Firstly, good old J.S. didn't really specify an instrument on which these compositions should be played, the German word "Klavier" was used for all key instruments at that time, including harpsichord and Bach's favored instrument, the clavichord. Secondly, good harpsichord and clavichord players can convey a sense of dynamic with subtle changes in tempo and note duration, definitely hard to compare with the fixed grid of trackers!
Also: I wasn't talking about the tracker as an instrument but the tracker as a workspace.

Too much control is, I feel, a false advantage. I find that I'm most creative when I'm limited in my expressiveness.

Sure, as I said limiting yourself can help. But I really need the option to record audio directly into a song, so I use a sequencer. And that's how most people feel who make music for a living, that's why sequencing DAWs are the mainstream standard.

Quite frankly, very few orchestral soundtracks have touched me nearly as much as the simple, bloopy tunes of yore -- and not just because of nostalgia. It's easy to disguise crappy songwriting with lavish orchestration, but when it's just you, a couple of jagged waves, and a noise channel, every single bit counts. Not to mention, tracker music has a distinct sound that I've never heard replicated in any other genre.

The truth is, sucky orchestral music is just as bad as sucky chiptune music. Every single bit counts whatever you do. Not talking about taste here, but about basic aesthetics and "craftsmanship".
About the distinct sound, funny you mention that: a long long time most people have tried to make synths sound like real instruments, before it was possible to make much use of sampling. Looks like things are moving backwards now. What was the greek word for backwards again......?

I guess what I'm trying to say is: would the "best" work written without the limitations of a tracker be better than the "best" work written using a tracker?

Here's where I'd talk about taste. And on the other side about context, because that's what media music is all about.
A retro-LoFi-pixelart game with meticulously recorded and mixed acoustic instruments is just as much a contrast as a high-end-interactive-movie-game with ultra-smart LR35902 chiptunes.

The question is always: what kind of sound do I want in my game?

And because every developer has different wishes and needs, I use tools which are less specialized on one or the other.
Ableton Live for Electronica, sound design and programming, Logic Pro for acoustic stuff. Sometimes ReWire between both.

[s0]

i think that from a purely musical standpoint you can do most anything with any good DAW and i guess most good trackers too. just use what you're most comfortable with.

[mcc]

Honestly, from a developer's perspective I don't know. The thing is, really the only advantage that tracker files have now is file size.

One thing to remember here is that file size matters a LOT on mobile (if nowhere else) and I've seen a lot of recent serious iPhone games using MOD or similar.

[noah!]

Honestly, from a developer's perspective I don't know. The thing is, really the only advantage that tracker files have now is file size.

One thing to remember here is that file size matters a LOT on mobile (if nowhere else) and I've seen a lot of recent serious iPhone games using MOD or similar.

That is very true...to a point. Really, it all depends on what you're trying to do with the format. Like, if you're doing them chip soundtracks then yes, it's definitely possible to limit yourself to 32KB a song. But

will easily push you up near megabyte range, which is roughly where a heavily-compressed OGG of similar length would land you.

(of course, I'm not putting chiptune down as somehow "less legitimate" than other genres. in fact, i love chiptune! and one of my favorite musicians is a writer of 4-channel modules! some of which are chiptune!)

[pgil]

Yeah, tracker-formats don't always mean small filesize.  When I did music for The Chicken Bandit (for Android only $2.99, btw ), I used MilkyTracker.  The XM files are about 6-10 mb each. I knew they'd all be rendered to .ogg, so I just used whatever samples I wanted. I could have made the same music in a DAW, but I just feel more comfortable composing in a tracker (recording and mixing is another story). 

So basically, use what you have to to make good music.  If you can make it small, or make it sound good from a 1-bit beeper, that's cool too. But I think as long as you make good music, somebody will like you and give you money.