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[s0]

The perfect example of that good-bad game design thing that Mr.Dolphin dude was talking about would be Resident Evil 1, 2, 3, 0 and Code Veronica's controls.

Fixed.

[shig]

The perfect example of that good-bad game design thing that Mr.Dolphin dude was talking about would be Resident Evil 4 and 5's controls.

How so? They're not normal, but they're hardly frustrating. If anything, they're more realistic than most games, as shooting a gun while running is near impossible.

The game intentionally makes everything harder and clunkier. Killing those zombies in a regular FPS game with WASD + mouse and everything would be ridiculously easy.

But somehow the fact that turning around is a pain in the ass and the fact that going from standing still to aiming takes years add some tension to the gameplay.

[genericuser]

Making the player think it's his fault for failing is good "bad" design.

Making the player think it's the game's fault is bad design.

[gimymblert]

Nice one generic, try to say that in the industry NOW!

[Melly]

Expectations also play a big part. Nearly any game can be enjoyable depending on how you expect to be spending your time with it. If you expect IWBTG to be a fun platformer, well, you're there for the wrong reasons. It makes it pretty obvious what its intent is after the first few senseless traps (especially the Delicious Fruit that falls up), and if you play it you play to expect for crazyness of that caliber, and worse.

At the same time, playing a game like Ninja Bread Man is an insanely pointless and awful experience if you wanna have fun with a quality action platformer. If you're in it to laugh at a shitty game with some buddies and beers, though, it can be a great time. There's a reason shitty horror movies actually sell (I'm pretty sure the only reason Uwe Boll's atrocious films sell enough to keep his shitty career going is because many people love to laugh at them. Seriously, I watched Alone in the Dark. You have to laugh not to cry).

[SirNiko]

I agree with your overall point, Melly, that expectations can flavor your experience. However, IWBTG's hilarity can only be experienced if you manage to actually get past those cruel and challenging traps. I'd expect a sizable portion of players of IWBTG have never passed the first three or four screens, and therefore, they've barely even scratched the surface of the content.

It's a good game that's hurt by hiding the good parts behind walls of fake difficulty. That's just bad design.

-SirNiko

[Golds]

Shh...  Sh...  Shit Game?

[h_double]

Trying to pass off lack of polish as "deliberate style" is one of the most common traps of laziness in creativity; almost everybody does it at one time or another.

Not to say there isn't some great "lo-fi" art/entertainment, but if you go that route, it will serve you well to be honest and ask yourself "COULD I make this more refined if I wanted? Is this REALLY the best direction?" Like they say, you should thoroughly understand the rules before you attempt to break them.

[Derakon]

Well said, h_double. It's always very easy to recognize the people who intentionally went the lo-fi route (e.g. Cave Story, Spelunky, IWBTG) vs. the people who just didn't try all that hard. Much like it's pretty easy to recognize the people who are trying hard to write good English despite its not being their primary language, vs. the people who just don't care about how they look online.

Every once in awhile I try to make some graphics and tell myself "Okay, these don't need to be good, so don't bother spending much time or effort on them." And then two hours later I look up and realize that I've ignored my own advice. ¬.¬

[s0]

Not to say there isn't some great "lo-fi" art/entertainment, but if you go that route, it will serve you well to be honest and ask yourself "COULD I make this more refined if I wanted? Is this REALLY the best direction?" Like they say, you should thoroughly understand the rules before you attempt to break them.

Somewhat related to this, being brutally honest to yourself regarding your own abilities helps a lot. How many games were abandoned or ended up shit because the creator was overambitious/too self-confident?

[Melly]

A little ambition beyond your current skill level is good, because it forces you to grow more skilled and experienced, even if the game is a bust. Too much, though, and you turn into the flytrap guy, living in your own world while everybody laughs at you.

Being self-critical is just as important of course. Basically it goes like this:

"I wanna make game X!"
"But I dunno how to make game X."
"So I'll go and learn to make it!"

[N. Crayon]

Being self-critical is just as important of course. Basically it goes like this:

"I wanna make game X!"
"But I dunno how to make game X."
"So I'll go and learn to make it!"

Isn't that how everybody learns and grows into competent game designers? Or anything at all? That's how I've learned what little snippets I currently know, anyways.

[s0]

A little ambition beyond your current skill level is good, because it forces you to grow more skilled and experienced, even if the game is a bust. Too much, though, and you turn into the flytrap guy, living in your own world while everybody laughs at you.

I wasn't talking about skill level as in craftsmanship, I'd be lying if I said I didn't learn programming by making games, but usually before I start a project, I ask myself "Can I really manage this?", "Do I have the dedication to see it through to the end?", "Did I bite off more than I can chew?" etc.

Or, to use a rather extreme but not uncommon example: If you're a mediocre "craftsman" with a short attention  span, making a massive open-world RPG with realistic physics and weather is probably not the greatest idea.