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[Chris Z]

No, no, that's not what he said.  It's rude to put words in people's mouths.

[Jason Bakker]

Edit and Continue is crap... but VS works fine for me, although saying that makes me lose anarchist cred I guess

I don't know... for a long time I was DS programming without a debugger (just using traces/asserts and crashes) and now that I have a call stack and breakpoints I feel spoiled for choice!

[BlueSweatshirt]

Edit and Continue is crap... but VS works fine for me, although saying that makes me lose anarchist cred I guess

I don't know... for a long time I was DS programming without a debugger (just using traces/asserts and crashes) and now that I have a call stack and breakpoints I feel spoiled for choice!

Personally, I just think the layout of VS is flat-out unintuitive. It tries, but it also fails. It's really not bad, it gets the job done, but I'd rather do the job in Code::Blocks or XCode.

One big thing that bugs me is that the VS IDE crashes whenever I try to open a resource file within the list. I've looked a bit, but haven't found a solution.(I should look again... Google time.)

[Jason Bakker]

XCode is nicer in general, although the lack of tabbed source files still bites. Grar!

[Martin 2BAM]

Why do you guys say it's hell to debug a dynamic language?

I didn't say 'dynamic', I said 'scripting'.   Generally the source of the hell is lack of debugger.  Generally, languages without debugging tools can be annoying to debug.

VS Edit and continue is a big pile of fucking bs that can suck my cock.

Oooooooooh, I understand now, but that's not a problem of the language itself

I was talking about, for example, Visual Basic which has a full-blown IDE and the output window allowed you (If I remember correctly) to execute stuff by typing "?"+line of code, and because it's interpreted changing things on the fly didn't take any time at all, hit "play" again and it's working.

Regards


Btw! Talking about XCode... I fricking hate Macs.
I can't write code with the keyboard layout! Denied!

I hooked a Windows USB keyboard but the Home key sends me to the top of the file, End to the bottom, It's making me go nuts.

How did you Non-Mac programmers deal with that?

[Jason Bakker]

How did you Non-Mac programmers deal with that?

I just sucked it up like a man

Seriously though, I dunno. I was prepared when going into XCode that I'd have to do things differently, so I just... took it in stride?

These days I'm in Visual Studio during the day and XCode at night, so it does take a few seconds to mentally realign to the different IDE each time... but yeah, you get used to it!

[Zaid Crouch]

Btw! Talking about XCode... I fricking hate Macs.
I can't write code with the keyboard layout! Denied!

I hooked a Windows USB keyboard but the Home key sends me to the top of the file, End to the bottom, It's making me go nuts.

How did you Non-Mac programmers deal with that?

As a predominantly mac user, I feel your pain, but backwards

Seriously though, I've always found modifiers+arrow keys so much more convenient and usable than home/end. Horses for courses, right?

[Martin 2BAM]

I just sucked it up like a man

:D Heh, but I'm used to using these commands (From Turbo C++ 3.1 days  ):

Shift+Delete: Cut
Ctrl+Insert: Copy
Shift+Insert: Paste

Ctrl+Left/Right arrow: Skip whole words.

But Whoopsie!, no Insert key... just a "HELP" FUCKING BUTTON! 
And I have to remap the Command key to the Control key position (to at least save with Ctrl+S, +C/+V to copy paste... etc)... but then "Command"+Arrow is like Home/End ARsdfhkfh.

I downloaded Ukelele, a keyboard layout remapper, but it's a kick in the nuts trying to use it.

Fucking Steve Jobs... At least he didn't adopt DVORAK as his fricking standard

[Gnarf]

Visual Studio during the day and XCode at night

That sounds really batman.

[Average Software]

I hooked a Windows USB keyboard but the Home key sends me to the top of the file, End to the bottom, It's making me go nuts.

How did you Non-Mac programmers deal with that?

The Home-End thing goes all the way back to the days of the Apple II, and remote Unix terminals before that.  That's how the keys are actually supposed to work.  Just like how on a Mac control-C is still 'break,' while 'copy' is meta-C, just like it was first intended.

[Martin 2BAM]

Hehe, thanks for the info, I didn't know that.

It's always easier to bitch about stuff

Anyway, If anyone has an idea or knows how can I remap stuff (with an app or something), it'll be appreciated.

EDIT:

* PC style Home and End keys

http://doublecommand.sourceforge.net/features.html
Bitchin'

Now I only need to find a way to map Shift+Delete/Command+Help/Shift+Help to Command+X/Command+C/Command+V respectively.

[Klaim]

I didn't say 'dynamic', I said 'scripting'. 

I don't know any scripting is the role when you use it to make your application/game scriptable, dynamic is the nature of the language. AFAIK, all scripting languages are dynamic. If they are not, there is no interest in them to be used as a scripting language.

But that's another story.

Anyway all the dynamic languages share the same debugger problem. And VS + C++ allow too to change values "on the fly" while debugging. It just is slow to start, don't allow code injection or execution (edit&execute is possible only in few specific cases that are rare in game programming anyway). Other than that, it's really powerful.

[Average Software]

XCode is nicer in general, although the lack of tabbed source files still bites. Grar!

I like Xcode because it doesn't have tabs.

The tabs drive me nuts in VC++/Dev-C++/Code::Blocks because it seems like I only have two options:

No tabs at all.

Open a new tab every damn time I look at a new file.

What is it with IDEs doing this?  Do people actually want that?  Surely I'm not the only person that wants a tab when I ask for it, and only when I ask for it, just like a web browser.

Or have I just been overlooking that option for years?

[Matt Thorson]

I was just looking at the proposed changes for C++0x and the auto and decltype keywords are going to be awesome.  No more ridiculous template shit just for simple type inference.

[Martin 2BAM]

And VS + C++ allow too to change values "on the fly" while debugging. It just is slow to start
(...)
Other than that, it's really powerful.

But, let's say you want to set a matrix as a roto-translation one:

W/debugger execution: mat.loadIdentity(); mat.rotate(...); mat.translate(...);
MSVC: Bullshit!, you're not going to do all the calculations to set each array value.

I really like the "set next instruction" or whatever (That let's you jump back to the beginning of the function), sometimes is useful to set memory, but the edit & continue is a useless crap.

Open a new tab every damn time I look at a new file.

I hear you man xD. I just forget and use the Project window. Sometimes the IDE weirds up (showing squares instead of characters) because it runs out of GDI handles I guess... because having 200 tabs isn't very resource-friendly  :D

I really miss the "switch to header/source" from Visual Assist (by button or keystroke)
Is the only thing I need actually, now I have to search it on the project all the time. For big projects (60+ files) is pain.

I had it on MSVC6, but it doesn't work with MSVC 2008 express (and I ain't paying the pro version).

MSVC's IntelliSense is a piece of shit. 75% of the time it just can't figure out what the variable type is or where I'm standing. Visual Assist IntelliSense teared it's asshole apart, hey even FlashDevelop's is more badass than Microsoft's.


Regards!

[Average Software]

And VS + C++ allow too to change values "on the fly" while debugging. It just is slow to start
(...)
Other than that, it's really powerful.

But, let's say you want to set a matrix as a roto-translation one:

W/debugger execution: mat.loadIdentity(); mat.rotate(...); mat.translate(...);
MSVC: Bullshit!, you're not going to do all the calculations to set each array value.

I really like the "set next instruction" or whatever (That let's you jump back to the beginning of the function), sometimes is useful to set memory, but the edit & continue is a useless crap.

Open a new tab every damn time I look at a new file.

I hear you man xD. I just forget and use the Project window. Sometimes the IDE weirds up (showing squares instead of characters) because it runs out of GDI handles I guess... because having 200 tabs isn't very resource-friendly  :D

I really miss the "switch to header/source" from Visual Assist (by button or keystroke)
Is the only thing I need actually, now I have to search it on the project all the time. For big projects (60+ files) is pain.

I had it on MSVC6, but it doesn't work with MSVC 2008 express (and I ain't paying the pro version).

MSVC's IntelliSense is a piece of shit. 75% of the time it just can't figure out what the variable type is or where I'm standing. Visual Assist IntelliSense teared it's asshole apart, hey even FlashDevelop's is more badass than Microsoft's.


Regards!

I just abandoned IDEs altogether.  I do most of my work on Linux now, with vim and a makefile.  I still use Xcode/Code::Blocks to organize and build the Mac/Windows versions of my projects, but I don't do any serious work in them anymore.

[John Nesky]

I just abandoned IDEs altogether.  I do most of my work on Linux now, with vim and a makefile. 

Replace "Linux" with "Mac" and "vim" with "TextWrangler" and this describes me. Although when starting a new project I use shell scripts instead of makefiles, because they're a lot easier to write. I only switch to makefiles when the project gets big enough.

[Brother Android]

This is kind of a silly thing to argue about if you think about it. Obviously, C++ works. It gets stuff done. It is very well adjusted for certain things. Some people even like the way it works, and use it to great effect to make software that does want they want it to do. So, how bad can it be?

Me, I thought computer science was chiefly concerned with whether stuff works or not.

[rogerlevy]

how bad can it be?

Uh-huh! uh-huh-huh, uh-huh-huh-huh!!! 

It only has wasted countless hours of innocent programmers' time!

No big deal!

[Chris Z]

Uh-huh! uh-huh-huh, uh-huh-huh-huh!!! 

It only has wasted countless hours of innocent programmers' time!

No big deal!

Really?  If you're still struggling with a language years after learning it then I'd attribute that to training and not the language itself.

I agree with Jabberwock, I haven't really argued about language since I first got into programming.  Language is irrelevant and no one should marry themselves to only one.  You use the one that works for the task and solve the problem you set out to solve.  For game programming, most of the time that language will be C++ when high performance is concerned.  Business apps will likely use C#/.NET or Java.  Web programmers will stick with scripting languages or ASP.  Trying to force your favorite language on a task where it doesnt really fit well will only make your life more difficult.