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[Chromanoid]

A barely-working prototype of a physics puzzler can be fun. I haven't found a way to make a barely-working virtual economy that's fun. Any hints?

I think management games are heavily theme based, since they are usually completely driven by decisions regarding their simulated domain. I would say, choose a fun promising theme first, extract decision/administration processes and look if they can be fun. This can be done by very simple prototyping e.g. just some instructions how to play with an excel sheet or a console based transaction system. For more action you could select some micromanagement tasks too (transport route creation/selection, placement of production facilities etc.). These tasks can be prototyped like normal games.

"Die Fugger II", "Die Gilde" and "the Settlers 2" (is mixed with rts) are some german management games worth looking at.

[SirNiko]

I think management games are heavily theme based, since they are usually completely driven by decisions regarding their simulated domain. I would say, choose a fun promising theme first, extract decision/administration processes and look if they can be fun.

This, this is what I was trying to point out in my earlier post. Start by picking a thing to manage. It can be absolutely anything. Once you have that, build the game around the logical related processes. The mechanics in a management game come second, first you need a good premise.

[gimymblert]

It's not what but why?

I can't answer why as an experience.

What makes a management premise interesting in term of mechanics?

[zovirl]

They are interesting because they are optimization problems. It is fun to try to find the optimal/best solution to a problem.

[Theophilus]

What makes a management premise interesting in term of mechanics?

Generally, fast paced movement and multitasking. More narrowly, I think customization would be nifty. This example assumes the game is about timebased management games such as diner dash. Imagine a management game where you can build the restaurant, give it a perfect layout for seating customers and taking orders. A nice touch would be furniture pieces that have certain abilities on the customers, such as a nice ice sculpture which makes them wait longer.

I believe this mechanic can branch out into other types of management games to a degree, maybe even with greater or more potent implementation. What comes to mind is roller coaster tycoon - completely custom parks. It is obvious that with time management and business management being two different gameplay styles, the feature of customization is one that would be very fickle to implement properly, dependent on what type of game.


We could give you better answers if you gave us more info about the game. I'm not sure if you already did, I sorta just skimmed. :-/




Good luck with this project!

[Chromanoid]

Yeah specify genre pls time management games are very different from business simulation games. Mixing them could be interesing, but many biz sim fans would not like it.

[s0]

Management games are like cellular automata. It's about experimenting with a system. Ideally, a management game should use as little scripted events and as much "emergent" (i.e. systems-based) gameplay as possible. Everything should derive from a set of rules the player should be able to manipulate, including goals, meaning there can't be "level design" in the traditional sense. There's also a creative aspect to a lot of them. Building a nice city or a successul business empire is satisfying on an aesthetic level, especially if players really feel like they designed it themselves. So yeah it's important to give players a sense of agency and responsibility. Minecraft is basically a management game imo.

Hope that makes sense. It's also obv informed by my own taste in MGs. 

[gimymblert]

But why cellular automata are LESS interesting and sticky than a management game? what the secret sauce? Why do we play them that we can abuse like those progression game who reduce game to the simplest form (because game are bout progression)?



so far I can represent all management game as sources, a complicate converter engine and sinks, it doesn't really matter what genre is the sim (business, time, whatever), I can see through their abstraction very well.

Also nobody really defined what that mean to manage in a management game, so you can apply it to everything.




what is a converter engine?
http://www.jorisdormans.nl/machinations/wiki/index.php?title=Converter_Engine

[Chromanoid]

What is fun in Monopoly? You seem to abstract the fun away.

Time management is about deciding/clicking fast. This is very different to biz sim games where you often have much time to decide and there is a certain depth in decisions.

time management:

or


biz sim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImfkfZZga48&feature=player_detailpage#t=117s or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoO0TfZcyAU

[gimymblert]

Because i'm NOT talking about fun

But the problem is depth, I mean decision about what broadly speaking? what the common denominator? If there is a goal to be met upfront then I'm not talking about those kind of management game (diner dash) because there is an obvious "progression", why management game without goal work is what I don't get.

For exemple a progression game you cange everything by simply changing the goal, think about capture game and fight game in pokemon, the same set of movement, rules and mechanics translate in totally different experience. This is designed because we simply mess up with the progression system.

I would not do such a nuance in a management game because I don't know what make different experience beyond direct interface manipulation. I only know that you can add pressure like time or any other mechanics, but onto what?

[s0]

I only know that you can add pressure like time or any other mechanics, but onto what?

An open ended, loop-driven system defined by a clear set of rules. A Simulation.

[Chromanoid]

(C.A. Sinclair's post came while writing my one)

the goal of management games are virtual wealth and domination (in any form). Management games resolve around a Dynamic Engine (see e.g. Monopoly). Progress can be measured in wealth / advantage over competitors regarding possible game actions.

[gimymblert]

Without competitor like sim city?

[Chromanoid]

wealth and possible game actions

"i want to build at least one of every different special habitat building. i want my people rich and healthy. i want to have one billion on my bank account...."

[s0]

The difference between Conway's Game of Life and a management game is that in GOL, your decisions don't make any impact beyond the realm of the aesthetic. You place a couple cells somewhere, you get a certain pattern, you place them somewhere else, you get a different one. What management games do is class certain patterns as "bad" and others as "good" via their progression mechanics (what Chromanoid calls wealth) and of course you'll want to influence the simulation in a way so that you'll end up with the "best" patterns. Of a course, management games usually feature a large number of patterns that are equal in value which is where the "creativity" part comes in.

BTW the reason I'm comparing management games to cellular automata is that a lot of them actually ARE cellular automata, the original Sim City for instance.

[Chromanoid]

I see. But there are many management games without grids as well (e.g. browsergames like ogame, the fugger series, Ports of Call, FIFA Manager, Mad TV (?)...).

btw some other game goals than money:
win conditions:
love of a woman (e.g. Mad TV, quite a few games have this)
winning prizes for power saving (Energie Manager)
inofficial goals:
getting a megalopolis (Sim City?),
only aristocrats as citizens (Anno 1601 endless game mode),
One has to offer some metrics with an upper limit and people will try to get there.

[gimymblert]

The grid is just another form of network, it's all about resource flow through connector (adjacency).

So it's about agency loop?

arg I can see the point by it does not click right now in my mind, gasp
I feel like an idiot

[Chromanoid]

What's an agency loop?

And don't feel that way

[s0]

The grid is just another form of network, it's all about resource flow through connector (adjacency).

Pretty much, yeah.

I didn't mean literally patterns on a grid, that was just part of my cellular automata analogy. What I'm talking about is general gameplay patterns/play states (not sure if that's the correct word).

[gimymblert]

I was answering to chromanoid to help him understand what you were saying

Right now I can't figure out what are those gameplay pattern are and why they matter to the player which is the main problem, Going from a tob is simple to grasp, I hope I can grasp management game in a equally similar way. I mean all game simply tell you go there (lovemeter, last boss last point of health, finish line, whatever).

Management game tell what to the player?