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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesMicrosoft announces XBox Live Community Games details
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arrogancy
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« on: July 22, 2008, 01:00:50 PM »

Microsoft announced the details for the XNA enabled XBox Live Community Games today.

The big news? No free games. Everyone that submits a game has to charge at least 200 points for it, although you can do demos within the game. In other words, it works exactly like XBLA, except you don't have to pass certification. So, basically, you can make an XNA game, upload it, and make money off of it if someone buys it.

Details: http://creators.xna.com/en-us/XboxLIVECommunityGames
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Alex May
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2008, 01:06:48 PM »

No free games? Jesus fucking christ.

edit 1: well, at least everyone gets to make money and release a demo. not so bad i guess.

edit 2: OK, the blurb sounds fine to me. The revenue is nice. Free trials are nice and the storefront with rating games sounds interesting; the peer review stuff is truly innovative and it all sounds pretty cozy.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 01:20:21 PM by haowan » Logged

ChrisFranklin
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2008, 04:19:17 PM »

I'm still not comfortable with a number of business decisions here.  Most notably, the use of file size as a marker for ultimate retail price as well as the notion of deducting from the developer's cut based on "advertising" that costs Microsoft nothing.  It sounds like 70% will be the amount you'll hear from a PR mouthpiece, but given that they take between 10% and 30% away when "advertising" your game on their own space your actual cut when the game is selling will be around 40%.  That way they get to claim one of the highest developer cuts in the land while actually giving you less than half when purchases are actually being made.  A bit of a bait and switch, if you ask me.

That said, there's no denying that a console opening itself up to the general public is a good thing; and the idea that any kid with an XBox and a PC can make a retail console game is one worth defending.  I just wish it wasn't surrounded by some shady/stupid business practices.

Edit: Also, this part of it:

Quote from: Microsoft
Club reviewers will be making sure there is no prohibitive content like IP infringement or seriously objectionable subject matter. Then they will make sure you have classified your game correctly. This isn’t to put constraints on your game, but rather, it is to make sure consumers are accurately informed about what they are downloading.

This is going to be one of the major failure points of this system.  Sure, it'll be fairly easy to weed out "Mickey Mouse's Adventures in Kingdom Hearts Guest Starring Goku" and "Let's Rape!" from the acceptable content.  But what about more subtle games?  What about a game that does a tasteful sex scene, or a game that is clearly a legally protected parody of Harry Potter that cuts it close to IP infringement?  How do we decide where the line is drawn between risque content and content that should be outright disallowed?

I'm not comfortable throwing up my arms and saying "Oh well, if you want to do anything interesting this development platform isn't for you, then!"  This is one of the only ways for small developers to get their works out to major portions of the console playing audience; it's silly to insist that they make banal, by-the-numbers games that don't push limits artistically.

Microsoft can't, on one hand, say they want to be the Sundance festival of games and on the other insist that all games released through their system be as conservative as possible in their aims and content.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 04:29:13 PM by ChrisFranklin » Logged
moi
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2008, 04:51:44 PM »

I'm sure Microsoft will exonerate itself, for example by braodly categorizing all the XNA club content as 'designed for adults' or sthg like that.
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2008, 08:05:25 PM »

We can break the system if we try hard enough! They allow demos, right? What's to say we can't shove a full game into a demo?

Of course, they might do something sneaky and add automatic timeouts. From this a new genre of 1 min games will be born...
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2008, 08:21:33 PM »

1 min games
That would be an awesome compo theme.
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2008, 08:23:01 PM »

1 min games
That would be an awesome compo theme.

Okay, ROM CHECK FAIL falls into every compo theme EVER.
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 10:36:41 PM »

im pretty excited about this.
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2008, 04:04:19 AM »

Forgive my ignorance, but how much money equals 200 points?
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Valter
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2008, 05:08:57 AM »

200 points is about 2.50, probably less. Tragic, I know  Lips Sealed

I don't get all the complaining about this. They're actually doing something that no other console has done- bring freeware gaming to the mainstream market. And about the IP infringement and controversial content, Microsoft is a big company. They're mostly just worried about being sued, I would expect. The man isn't putting you down, he's just trying to save his own ass.

Also, "No controversial material or copyright infringement" does not mean "No innovation". It just means you'll have to actually make a fun game with your own ideas instead of someone else's.
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team_q
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2008, 06:02:16 AM »

We had a Microsoft rep at our school talking to us about this. I had hounded him with questions. They say they want the youtube of videogames, just a torrent of whatever with some good games thrown in and rising to the top. I had tried to explain to him that that concept wasn't what they are making. Youtube is completely reactionary and the barrier of publishing is free. Xbox creators club is proactive and reactive, with the cost of publishing being $100 a year. This I would think, would cut the number of people developing by a lot. There is a way for students to get it for free though, which is nice. Also the proactive thing could lead to problems, we had a lengthy discussion about longtail appeal. I worried that the 50% approval would lead to developers having to water down their games for mas consumption. He told me that if your game only appealed to 10% their venue is probably not the best for it. When I was talking to him everything in the creators club was available for free though.

So I am excited but worried, I think they are trying too hard to have an element of control from the front end, and should just let the ideas flow and stop the bad ones afterwards.
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2008, 06:56:36 AM »

200 points is about 2.50, probably less. Tragic, I know  Lips Sealed

I don't get all the complaining about this. They're actually doing something that no other console has done- bring freeware gaming to the mainstream market. And about the IP infringement and controversial content, Microsoft is a big company. They're mostly just worried about being sued, I would expect. The man isn't putting you down, he's just trying to save his own ass.

Also, "No controversial material or copyright infringement" does not mean "No innovation". It just means you'll have to actually make a fun game with your own ideas instead of someone else's.

As I said, I don't want to be super negative here.  There's no denying that they're opening their console up more than anyone in the history of the industry, and I think we can all agree that this is a universally Good Thing.  Democratization of development can do nothing but help the medium, and I look forward to playing all the insanely awesome stuff people manage to come up with.

But it seems like there were two ways Microsoft could have gone about doing this.  One would be a system where Microsoft held all the keys to all the doors, taking submissions, reviewing them for content, and deciding on pricing.  You know, basically a more lax version of Live Arcade targeted at the hobbyist and indies who don't have the cash to front an ESRB rating, the programming chops to not use a middleware solution, or other crazy development hurdles.  Or they could have genuinely tried to be the YouTube of games, where anyone can post any XNA game they've made for free with no expectation of returns but the opportunity to post their stuff in front of a massive audience.

As it is we get some sort of mix between the two.  They don't want to really be YouTube - you can't post games for free, after all (there's no way to monetize your content in Microsoft's favor that way!), and the submission system is still a giant black hole of mystery.  Your game still needs approval to be put up, but a wishy-washy sort of "Your peers will decide your fate" approval.  Which I'm even less comfortable with than if Microsoft had simple guidelines about content restrictions.  Again, games with blatantly inappropriate content and/or IP infringement will get stopped in their tracks... but, if Dishwasher Samurai is any indication, tons of violence is totally cool? How do we define what's inappropriate?  What happens when this committee of peers can't reach a conclusion of whether my violent/sexual game is tasteful or over the edge?

All of which raises another question: How are these games going to be rated?  I doubt that commercial games released to a mass audience on a major console platform and published by Microsoft are just going to subvert the entire ratings process.  At the same time, I concede there's not really any other way to do it - an ESRB rating costs far too much for a game that'll sell for $2.50 a pop and would be lucky to reach 5000 sales.  But I wonder how other indies vying to get into Live Arcade would feel when they're forking over cash for a rating Microsoft's other digitally distributed games don't have to pay for.  Alternately, I wonder how they'll fund an actual ESRB rating should that be the way they go about it - maybe you don't see a dime until they recoup the cost of getting you a rating?  Who knows.

All told, I'm happy this has come about, and I applaud Microsoft's efforts in trying to bring game development to a wider number of people.  It just seems to be shrouded in really bad/confusing business decisions, and I have serious reservations about how well this is going to come together without being given more details.
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team_q
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2008, 07:11:54 AM »

The rating is entirely community based, the ESRB is not involved at all. Getting an ESRB rating is in no ways mandatory. If your game fails certification then you won't get published, but you can always resubmit from my understanding.
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Dirty Rectangles

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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2008, 07:26:51 AM »

shit time to learn xna, great news btw
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arrogancy
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2008, 09:29:35 AM »

As I said, I don't want to be super negative here.  There's no denying that they're opening their console up more than anyone in the history of the industry, and I think we can all agree that this is a universally Good Thing.  Democratization of development can do nothing but help the medium, and I look forward to playing all the insanely awesome stuff people manage to come up with.

But it seems like there were two ways Microsoft could have gone about doing this.  One would be a system where Microsoft held all the keys to all the doors, taking submissions, reviewing them for content, and deciding on pricing.  You know, basically a more lax version of Live Arcade targeted at the hobbyist and indies who don't have the cash to front an ESRB rating, the programming chops to not use a middleware solution, or other crazy development hurdles. 

They don't have enough people to cover XBLA as it is. Things still have to be cost effective.

Quote
Or they could have genuinely tried to be the YouTube of games, where anyone can post any XNA game they've made for free with no expectation of returns but the opportunity to post their stuff in front of a massive audience.

Then it would be Newgrounds and nobody would ever been able to make even decent money on their games.

Quote
As it is we get some sort of mix between the two.  They don't want to really be YouTube - you can't post games for free, after all (there's no way to monetize your content in Microsoft's favor that way!), and the submission system is still a giant black hole of mystery.  Your game still needs approval to be put up, but a wishy-washy sort of "Your peers will decide your fate" approval.  Which I'm even less comfortable with than if Microsoft had simple guidelines about content restrictions.  Again, games with blatantly inappropriate content and/or IP infringement will get stopped in their tracks... but, if Dishwasher Samurai is any indication, tons of violence is totally cool? How do we define what's inappropriate?  What happens when this committee of peers can't reach a conclusion of whether my violent/sexual game is tasteful or over the edge?

The reviews are based on whether the content matches what YOU say it is. You can't release a game with "no violence" and have heads cut off. Other than that, the only restrictions are realistic depictions of gruesome violence and strong sexual content (besides copyright decisions).

You do realize that the service has been beta-ing for a while now, right?

Quote
All of which raises another question: How are these games going to be rated?  I doubt that commercial games released to a mass audience on a major console platform and published by Microsoft are just going to subvert the entire ratings process.  At the same time, I concede there's not really any other way to do it - an ESRB rating costs far too much for a game that'll sell for $2.50 a pop and would be lucky to reach 5000 sales.  But I wonder how other indies vying to get into Live Arcade would feel when they're forking over cash for a rating Microsoft's other digitally distributed games don't have to pay for.  Alternately, I wonder how they'll fund an actual ESRB rating should that be the way they go about it - maybe you don't see a dime until they recoup the cost of getting you a rating?  Who knows.

You rate your own game's content.

Quote
All told, I'm happy this has come about, and I applaud Microsoft's efforts in trying to bring game development to a wider number of people.  It just seems to be shrouded in really bad/confusing business decisions, and I have serious reservations about how well this is going to come together without being given more details.

A lot of the details have been given, as the service has been in beta for a while. The only new issue is the pay system.
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