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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessIndie game deadline (Question)
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TeeGee
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2012, 09:44:01 AM »

Yeah. Actually, all of the delay was caused by writing issues, with the whole game being done much earlier. We worked on something else during that time, tried to pitch another project to a friendly company, designed our next game, and took time to make additional art and improvements for the original project. It was a mess and precisely because we couldn't set any deadline on the release. When we finally found our new writers, a deadline was set again and we actually managed to get the game done one day earlier.
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2012, 11:41:29 AM »

Yeah. Actually, all of the delay was caused by writing issues, with the whole game being done much earlier. We worked on something else during that time, tried to pitch another project to a friendly company, designed our next game, and took time to make additional art and improvements for the original project. It was a mess and precisely because we couldn't set any deadline on the release. When we finally found our new writers, a deadline was set again and we actually managed to get the game done one day earlier.
You also made Co-op, didn't you?  Tongue
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TeeGee
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2012, 11:47:04 AM »

Yeah, but that took like 48h in total.
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2012, 11:48:58 AM »

Yeah, but that took like 48h in total.
Imagine what could you achive if you'd spend a year on one game (inside joke)  Well, hello there!
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Tumetsu
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2012, 12:49:46 PM »

How do you decide what is a milestone or a deadline and when it is? I use todo lists and they work well, but like Rinkuhero said one might suffer from not having deadlines & milestones. I think I have at least partially this problem.

For example right now I have big list of things in my todo, but can't really come up good deadline or milestone from them. In sense I don't know how to group myriad of little tasks, even if they have a same theme (like menus, enemy graphics etc.) and assigning unique deadline for each small task seems a bit overkill to me.

To rehash the question, how do you group tasks into meaningful groups which then can be set a deadline? After all many tasks are interconnected.
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ANtY
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2012, 02:35:26 PM »

My milestones are equal to new updates for the game, for example it's one milestone from version 0.6.0 to 0.7.0:

Quote
------------0.7.0-------------------
-Added confirmation message when you try to delete a profile
-Screen's shaking badassly when you're getting hit
-Fixed sounds
-Added skip tutorial option
-Flashing info "Beat Grey Wolf to unlock spells"
-Added fullscreen option
-Boosted everyone's HP and again rebalanced the whole game
-Lowered first enemies' HP
-Polished main menu
-Added special character abilities (more info in character creation screen)
-Notification how many HP does your shield provide
-Boosted Nature spell
-Fixed sometime not-working buttons
-Fixed famous 'wolf's bug'
-Redesigned character creation screen, now with cool character bios and better information presentation
-Added a lot of sound effects
-Added a lot of special effects
-Created new spell specifically designed for Water Spirit
-Added new item type - shields, also with some cool in-game effects
-Added shops with tier I items, also with an option to sell your stuff
-New background: Hills
-New background: Arena
-New background: City
-New enemy: Master of Arms
-New enemy: Earth Spirit
-New enemy: Nature Spirit
-New item: Wolf's Hide (drops from wolves)
-New item: Rat's Skin (drops from rats)
-New item: Scarre's Horn (drops from Scarres)
-New item: Ape's Back (drops from them monkeys)
-New item: Tear of the Goddes (drops from Water Spirit)
-New item: Root of Evil (drops from Nature Spirit)
-New item: Earth Shard (drops from Earth Spirit)
-New item: Klippen Gun (MoA's starting item)
-New item: Rod of Mages (Priest's starting item)
-New item: Club (tier I weapon)
-New item: Sling (tier I weapon)
-New item: Dagger (tier I weapon)
-New item: Wooden Shield (tier I armor)
-New item: Leather Cap (tier I armor)
-New item: Leather Armor (tier I armor)
-New item: Ring of Regeneration (tier I amulet)
-New item: Pendant of Wisdom (tier I amulet)
-New item: Moon Bracelet (tier I amulet)

It was on our todo list for the current milestone, of course I add some things ad-hoc when they're crucial for the game to stay playable after changes made during the milestone that I didn't know before how they'll change it.

We add one boss, one big feature and some more smaller ones in every milestone. For example in this it was MoA as a boss and the main big feature was shop, smaller ones were: new character creation screen,fixing some bugs, balancing gameplay, adding new spell for one enemy, and some more.

Anyway, I don't really see a problem in grouping tasks into milestones, after we finish the current milestone (which we just did) we spend a few days only thinking about tasks for the next milestone and discussing them. Works really fine!

Anyway, I'll make a post on my blog about the awesome tool I'm using for organizing this whole thing.
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« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2012, 08:43:43 PM »

Cool, looking forward for your tool
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eyeliner
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2012, 01:46:05 AM »

I was thinking yesterday about one thing that ANtY right there plastered all over the screen:
versioning.

How do you decide that the version you have is 0.5/0.5.111111 or any other? Any magic formula? Or is it connected to the number of features complete from the ones in concept, like design the game with 100 enemies, 50 areas, 150 super powers and making half of that warrants a 0.5?
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2012, 02:04:06 AM »

Version numbers/names exists only for you to know which state of the code is tested when you deliver a version.

In other words: each version should correspond to a testable state. That you have to diffuse it or not is your choice. You can have one version each time you send it to some people to test it. Or maybe you want to mark a specific testable version that include a new feature, and be able to get back to this state later (because you use a source control soft, right?).

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ANtY
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2012, 02:11:56 AM »

From what I know it goes like this: 0.1.0 is for major features and 0.1.1 is for minor changes, also you can add 0.1.1b if it's really something small, like a single bug fix.
Anyway, you don't really have to stick to any guidelines about versioning, I do is as I like and it looks pretty legit.
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RudyTheDev
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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2012, 05:39:31 AM »

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_versioning Versioning is a house style issue and everyone will tell you differently. For example, 2.1.3.1406 could be generation 2, major 1, minor 3, build 1406. Suffixes like b1 or rc2 (for beta 1 and release candidate 2) are popular. But, unless you care about revisioning, subversion controls, code sharing, build-specific bug reports, etc., it's just a convention.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2012, 09:37:42 AM »

How do you decide what is a milestone or a deadline and when it is? I use todo lists and they work well, but like Rinkuhero said one might suffer from not having deadlines & milestones. I think I have at least partially this problem.

For example right now I have big list of things in my todo, but can't really come up good deadline or milestone from them. In sense I don't know how to group myriad of little tasks, even if they have a same theme (like menus, enemy graphics etc.) and assigning unique deadline for each small task seems a bit overkill to me.

To rehash the question, how do you group tasks into meaningful groups which then can be set a deadline? After all many tasks are interconnected.

this depends on the game, but i generally group tasks into big groups of 20-50 tasks. i don't usually set a group of tasks as a milestone however. instead i set several time-consuming individual tasks as the milestone, and the other tasks can be done whenever.

example, my current milestone for SD is "finish all ~40 dream mode levels". but in order to finish those levels, certain other tasks must also be done, such as converting creatures to dream mode (so that they have specific actions / movement patterns / behaviors in that mode), as well as working on the infrastructure related to those levels (such as a game over message, a high score system) and the visuals/audio related to those levels (sound effects, particle effects)

that's a pretty big milestone though (so far it's been 5 months, i started this one in the beginning of february). i've had smaller milestones that have only taken a month or so, such as "write all the remaining dialogue in the game" (as a first draft, just having everything done but not edited). another one was 'add the options menu and get most of the different game options in that menu working', which also took about a month

during those periods i often work on things not related to the milestone or not necessary for it, just as a break. you don't have to work on everything in a specific order, you can do what's fun sometimes. for instance during my current 5 month milestone i took a break for about 2-3 weeks just to work on some of the music (typing up sheet music into midi notation software, then arranging it and working with others to arrange it better)

so what i'd suggest is to leave most of the tasks in one lump, but for the current milestone, arrange the necessary tasks for that milestone. i also feel milestones should be something big, something *noticeable by players*, not something minor. something that you, as a player of your own game, will be happy with to have finished, such as "being able to play the game to the end, with an ending", or "adding joystick controls", or "add a new playable character", something like that, not something under the hood that only you as a developer care about

here's some more milestones i've had for SD, from memory, in rough order of when i did them

- the basic engine: movement controls / title screen / loading screen / new game / continue / saving / loading / etc.

- coding the game objects and creatures (not all of them, just getting some of each of the major entities in the game working). in other words, adding all the basic 'object types'

- adding the player's abilities (the actions the player can do, abilities the player can collect/equip and use)

- adding the level editor and map system, and a test level, and an area transition effect

- adding sound effects, music, and particle effects into the game, as well as other special visual effects like reflections and whatnot (what one indie game video called "juice")

- making more areas of the game, more creatures, more interactive map objects (this took most of the time, probably like two full years, within which i had smaller milestones like the ones below)

- adding an intro, and endings, and "bosses"

- adding various "systems" into the game (memory cell system, terraforming system, teleport tree system, godstatue system, function upgrading system, camp mode system, weather system, soundscape system,  an "ability stealing" system (where the player acquires abilities from the creatures), etc. -- each of these was a small milestone which added a lot to the game)
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James Coote
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« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2012, 08:12:17 AM »

This is a really noobie question, but how often do you commit and push changes (assuming you're using github or something similar). Every time you tick off one of those features or items on your list or every day at the end of the day?
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Crystalline Green - Android Games Developers
ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2012, 08:27:39 AM »

i never heard of githup; i just use paper and pencil to keep track of the tasks. and i record competed tasks at the end of the day in livejournal:

http://rinku.livejournal.com

i'm not sure this matters though. whatever you use and however often you want to check tasks off depends on an individual's style. i prefer oldschool / low-tech stuff, others might want to record their tasks on their nearby ipad
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2012, 09:20:01 AM »

Github is for version control, Paul. I think most people commit after they've completed a specific task or at the end of the day. I personally just use Dropbox, though, so I guess I commit all the time. Smiley
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Laserbrain Studios
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2012, 09:23:31 AM »

yeah i imagined it was some version control thing; i don't know if that is necessary unless you have multiple programmers. if you have just one individual programmer, is there any advantage of using version control over just regular backups using stuff like dropbox / mozy / google drive?
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2012, 09:26:53 AM »

I've been wondering about that as well. To me, Dropbox seems perfectly fine if you're just one programmer.
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TeeGee
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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2012, 09:29:32 AM »

I think version control is more convenient than just dropbox, especially if you have several working computer and/or team members. I use SVN, and I just commit at the end of each day of work.
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2012, 09:34:11 AM »

I originally installed Dropbox precisely because I have several computers I work on and wanted automatic syncing. But maybe you mean several computers working at the same time on the code?
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2012, 09:55:17 AM »

Source control is better than Dropbox (or more precisely, it adds to Dropbox, cause you can use both at the same time) in that you can easily see the changes you have made sorted in logical commits with comments and diffs. Rolling back with Dropbox is pain in ass, rolling back with version control is easy and fast. Seriously, every programmer, even working alone, should use one.
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