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[Soulliard]

The menu ought to be keyboard controlled. Nothing's more annoying than playing a game which uses keyboard input and suddenly being forced to use a mouse in the menus.

[Skofo]

The menu ought to be keyboard controlled. Nothing's more annoying than playing a game which uses keyboard input and suddenly being forced to use a mouse in the menus.

What's wrong with using both, like in most PC games?

What does everyone think about my idea of having ai bots battling in the background?

I don't know if Game Maker could handle that.

[medieval]

What's wrong with using both, like in most PC games?

It's a nuisance for various players

I don't know if Game Maker could handle that.

Clearly you're not very informed.

[Skofo]

It's a nuisance for various players

It is not a nuisance. People that like to use their mouse or keyboard are able to right off the bat, most of the time not noticing/caring that it can be controlled another way.

Clearly you're not very informed.

Oh, I am. Believe me. Probably a lot more than you.

[policedanceclub]

Clearly you're not very informed.

Oh, I am. Believe me. Probably a lot more than you.

ha ha ha, god you are hilarious.
it's so true, that's what makes it funny!


ha ha ha.

[KennEH!]

Three portraits are already done, so their look is already pretty much set.

Well then shouldn't the menu be modelled after that? One thing that really bugs me is differing styles in the same project.

[Rory]

It's a nuisance for various players

It is not a nuisance. People that like to use their mouse or keyboard are able to right off the bat, most of the time not noticing/caring that it can be controlled another way.

Ever played Multihero? Using the mouse in the menu was annoying, but thankfully you could use the keyboard instead, albeit controlling the cursor.

Trust me, no-one wants a mouse controlled menu in a keyboard dominated game like this.

[Hinchy]

I actually prefer using the mouse on menus, even in keyboard-driven games. How about we just allow it to use BOTH! That way, everyone wins!

[William Broom]

I'd just like to clarify one point here. I have not used any functions that require a registered version of Game Maker, so anyone with a Windows system can download GM and work with the code. It's not difficult to learn, and the only code you need to deal with is in the five uncategorized scripts.

Much as I hate to give Skofo any kind of ammunition, I have to point out that this is not true. You use the functions image_blend and draw_sprite_ext, both of which are only available in the pro version. This was a problem for me and Rory before he got the registered version. image_blend was easy to remove, but draw_sprite_ext is used to flip the character according to their xscale, so I didn't know how to remove it. Perhaps you could make a version of the engine that doesn't use these functions? If people are only going to use it for coding characters, they don't need to have the sprites flipped - they're already playing with an idle sprite that shoots yellow blobs, so having the idle sprite always face the same direction won't really hurt.

I actually prefer using the mouse on menus, even in keyboard-driven games. How about we just allow it to use BOTH! That way, everyone wins!

Exactly. There's no reason not to use both. However, we should make sure that the arrow keys cursor snaps to the menu items. Multihero was annoying because if you chose to use the arrow keys, they controlled a traditional mouse cursor, which was a pain.

[Rostiger]

I actually prefer using the mouse on menus, even in keyboard-driven games. How about we just allow it to use BOTH! That way, everyone wins!

Exactly. There's no reason not to use both. However, we should make sure that the arrow keys cursor snaps to the menu items. Multihero was annoying because if you chose to use the arrow keys, they controlled a traditional mouse cursor, which was a pain.

Agreed (if it's not too much of an effort, that is)! And while we're at it, gamepad support for the menu would be great too!
Also, when using the keyboard it would be good if the mouse cursor is invisible. That way there is no visual interruption for keyboard only users (like me )

[William Broom]

So, would you select from the menu whether you wanted to use mouse or keyboard for the menu? That would be a bit cumbersome. I guess you could have it that the mouse disappears when you press a keyboard key, and reappears if you move it. But then there might be a problem if one player was using the mouse and the other was using the keyboard.

[Soulliard]

This was a problem for me and Rory before he got the registered version. image_blend was easy to remove, but draw_sprite_ext is used to flip the character according to their xscale, so I didn't know how to remove it.

Change draw_sprite_ext to draw_sprite and remove the last few variables.

[Skofo]

So, would you select from the menu whether you wanted to use mouse or keyboard for the menu? That would be a bit cumbersome. I guess you could have it that the mouse disappears when you press a keyboard key, and reappears if you move it. But then there might be a problem if one player was using the mouse and the other was using the keyboard.

This is what I meant right off the bat. Many, many games do this.

How is it a nuisance?

Clearly you're not very informed.

Oh, I am. Believe me. Probably a lot more than you.

ha ha ha, god you are hilarious.
it's so true, that's what makes it funny!


ha ha ha.

What's your problem? Are you able to tell and compare different people's expertise in random things without evidence?

Thanks for referring to me as god, though. I blushed.

Much as I hate to give Skofo any kind of ammunition...

And what's your problem? Do you have something personal against me? I argue and debate for the truth and for what I think is the best for everyone, I won't disagree with you simply because I don't like you. Why do you have a sociological bias against my arguments? Is everyone brushing my arguments aside because I've been deemed as evil and bothersome and everyone must do the opposite of what I say no matter how much sense the things I say make?

I realize that you have actually agreed with me on one point, but that line suggested that you hesitated just because the person that made that point is named Skofo.

I'm betting a lot of people here are doing that.

Just because I'm arguing for something that requires more work and a bit more tidiness, doesn't mean it is necessarily a bad thing. I could care less if it were a solo project with original designs and characters, but this is a community project that takes the hard work of many other people and blends it together. Just because the project organizer refuses to organize things more, everyone else that's working on this project also suffers and has a harder time as a result. He's not organizing just for one person, but many people, and they all have to take the fall even if they're working exceptionally hard because of one person's lazyness or general incompetence. This is why it's important to have a neat system, for the ease of the entire community. It's just plain rude not to.

Am I not making sense here, or something?

[godsavant]

Could you keep it down? We're trying to work here.

   I see why you would protest, though. 'Projects' should just be renamed 'Indie Brawl' if this continues. Yet, this is not at all Nightshade's fault; he's doing the best he can with what's at hand. Hell, with the voluntary nature of the project and juggling of everyone's schedules, this project has been turning out very well.   
   I think the Wiiware Cave Story announcement still has everyone reeling, since it will really push us back if Pixel denies permission, but the real problem is the amount of 'you-mus-resepct-mi-opinon', 'I-think-we(meaning you)-should-add-this-and-that-and-this...'and generally furious wanking over what this game could be without getting any goddamn work done. 

I think the reason everyone's siding with Nightshade is because he's done a hell of a lot more for this project than you have. We're not holding anything against, you, Skofo, but if you insist on rocking the boat with the claim that this game can be made better, then do something to help it along.

[Soulliard]

It also helps to show a little courtesy instead of lacing your posts with veiled (and outright) insults.

[William Broom]

Much as I hate to give Skofo any kind of ammunition...

And what's your problem? Do you have something personal against me?

Yes. I do have something personal against you, because from your first post here you have done nothing but insult people, complain, and belittle Nightshade's hard work and that of many others, including myself. Opinions do not exist independently of their owners. You cannot expect me to treat you with the same respect as other people working on the project.

That said, I do seriously consider everything you say, because you occasionally come up with some useful points - like the one about the source code not being useable for people without the Pro version of Game Maker. If I disregarded everything you said out of hand, then I would never have supported you at all on that point, would I?

[Gainsworthy]

Come on now, can't we diffuse this situation just a little? Talk it over with a little more formality.

Skofo is being negative, but he's not being malicious. He sees some genuine flaws in the project, and seems adamant we rectify them. The reliance on game maker does stop contributions from a few who want to contribute, especially once the game is released into the wild. He seems concerned about technical limitations for more fancy applications - though I have no idea if they're ill founded. Uh, also, does Game-Maker do cross platform, or is it a Windows only thing?


HOWEVER, as I (and others too) have said before, creating a new platform is going to slow this whole damn thing down for a while, and AND AND Nightshade picked up the reigns. Nightshade's helped get everyone on track, keeping the project moving. Nightshade uses Game Maker. No other folks have strode in and said "oh, yeah, I could whip up a nice malleable framework in a neutral language which everyone can edit". And, yeah, I feel I owe him something for trying to expand the project out from pipedream.


In my opinion, you are making sense, Skofo. But there are some practicalities which you haven't dealt with in your arguments.

Uh, also, could this debate be continued out of this Menu Thread? Into a new one? I mean, it'll probably turn into a fight if both sides aren't civil about it, but it's going to happen here anyway, and it's going to come up again. May as well not derail it further.

[Soulliard]

Come on now, can't we diffuse this situation just a little? Talk it over with a little more formality.

That's really up to Skofo.

The reliance on game maker does stop contributions from a few who want to contribute, especially once the game is released into the wild. He seems concerned about technical limitations for more fancy applications - though I have no idea if they're ill founded. Uh, also, does Game-Maker do cross platform, or is it a Windows only thing?

Game Maker's easy to download and easy to use, so it shouldn't be a big limitation on who can contribute. At least, it's no bigger a limitation than programming it in any other language would be. The only problem with using the free version of GM is that the characters will always be drawn facing right, but that won't impede the game mechanics.

And yes, Skofo's ideas about the technical limitations of GM are ill-founded. It can easily handle this type of game.

Game Maker's major limitation right now is that it is Windows-only. However, there is a Mac-compatible version in the works.

[Gold Cray]

Game Maker's major limitation right now is that it is Windows-only. However, there is a Mac-compatible version in the works.

The camera test works under Wine with a few aesthetic issues. It would work perfectly if fullscreen were optional.

[Soulliard]

Fullscreen will eventually be an option. For now, you can toggle it with f4.