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[iffi]

I can't be bothered to learn any of them. Though I can't get myself to program either, so that's just a lack of motivation/spare time on my part. I do like the extra control I have over a project when I program it myself, though.

On another note, recently I've been spending a bit of time learning to use Unity, so maybe I might actually get something done for once.

[valkrin]

I use Linux for all development. Most game development tools are targeted for Windows. Also, I want to make a game that runs on Linux/Windows/Mac/Android/possibly iPhone. To accomplish my goals I develop in Java.

I eschew using game development tools because I am a professional programmer and programming is easy for me. The only hard part is learning the math involved for doing collision detection.

I find the game development tools rather mysterious and the amount of effort I would have to devote to learning a specific tool would be better spent learning the fundamentals. The benefit of learning the fundamentals is clear, once I know how something should be done. I can do it again in any language for any platform. If however I devoted time to learning a specific tool, I would only be investing in that tool and would be limited to the platforms of that tool. If I decided to recreate a game using a different tool targeting a different platform, I would need to devote an equal amount of time to learning this new tool.

I do not look forward to paying this tool re-learning tax. The fundamentals seem like a better investment of my time. Also, there is the possibility of creating your own tools that are no mystery, once you have mastered the fundamentals.

[slembcke]

I also love dealing with platform specific issues, things like window management and input.  I'm shocked that so many people hide behind libraries like SDL, and never even learn how to make a simple window on their OS of choice.  For me, this is the fun part, and the knowledge I've gained by learning it has helped me immensely, both in my personal projects and in my professional projects.  I can't get that from game making tools.

Heh. That seems to be taking things one step further than (most of) the folks saying that they enjoy program engines instead of just using a game dev tool. I guess I can sympathize a bit as I've had to build a patched version of SDL that fixes subtle non Mac-like behaviors like menu shortcuts and fullscreen behavior. While this doesn't make it 100% consistent across platforms, people tend to appreciate the niceties.

[Average Software]

I also love dealing with platform specific issues, things like window management and input.  I'm shocked that so many people hide behind libraries like SDL, and never even learn how to make a simple window on their OS of choice.  For me, this is the fun part, and the knowledge I've gained by learning it has helped me immensely, both in my personal projects and in my professional projects.  I can't get that from game making tools.

Heh. That seems to be taking things one step further than (most of) the folks saying that they enjoy program engines instead of just using a game dev tool. I guess I can sympathize a bit as I've had to build a patched version of SDL that fixes subtle non Mac-like behaviors like menu shortcuts and fullscreen behavior. While this doesn't make it 100% consistent across platforms, people tend to appreciate the niceties.

I think that 100% consistency across platforms is a bad thing.  Like the non-Mac-like SDL behavior you mentioned, cross platform toolkits always seem "off" on at least one platform they target.

I can almost always pick out a Java program on the Mac, for example, because it tends to not look or feel like other Mac programs.  I do all my platform specific work in the native APIs, and I end up with something that at least feels like it belongs on that platform.  I think this justifies the extra work, and it's really not that hard.

[Dim_Yimma_H]

the real 'challenge' of making a game should not be the programming, it should be the game design: making a game is challenging enough. level design is challenging, balancing is challenging, polishing is challenging, making the art is challenging, making the music is challenging. all using a pre-made engine means is that the hard part shifts from programming to the actual challenges of making a game.

It seems that's why GM games generally have better design than C++ based games (speaking of small scale indie games).

I think "game" programmers tend to be "game engine" programmers, if they (like me) spend most of the game development time on programming the engine behind the game. In that case the technology kinda gets more care than the game mechanics.

Maybe this difference in approaches is from different times, because in the early 90's game development was almost synonymous with programming, and in the late 00's game dev-software has become a business in itself.

[CatStack]

I like programming, and I see games programming as a way to hone my programming skills in a way that I find enjoyable.

Edit: As it goes, I also enjoy designing games mechanics and whatnot. I think my least favourite bit, generally speaking, is the artistic stuff - it's just so time consuming and I never really feel like I've produced anything noteworthy or overcame any particular challenges at the end of the process.

[krasimir]

If you're doing a quick prototype, by all means, use a game dev editor. Same thing if you're doing iteration 12 (assuming the previous 11 were done in a game dev editor).

However, if you're doing something DIFFERENT, chances are the editor will be very confining and detrimental to your vision. And frankly... what's the point of doing something that is NOT different from everyone else?

[jotapeh]

I think there's a lot of validity to prototyping in Flash/GM.

I'm not so sure about fully fledged game engines, though I would give Flash more credit in that arena than GM, particularly with the Molehill APIs on the horizon.

Definitely though too many people leap first and realize their game idea isn't great much later (after hours of C++ code have been written to get there..)

[Nix]

I think there's a lot of validity to prototyping in Flash/GM.

I'm not so sure about fully fledged game engines, though I would give Flash more credit in that arena than GM, particularly with the Molehill APIs on the horizon.

Definitely though too many people leap first and realize their game idea isn't great much later (after hours of C++ code have been written to get there..)

While I would say that Flash is a much better platform to begin developing games on than Java or C++, I'm not sure I would go so far as to say it's a "game development editor." In fact, actually making a game in Flash requires doing so many things in roundabout and unintuitive ways that I would be less keen on recommending it to new developers than something like Java, for which there is plenty of documentation and many good books on making games. Flash provides a very powerful multimedia API and a high market saturation, and that's why it's useful. But on its own, without any helper libraries like Flixel (and even with Flixel), I am highly reluctant to put it on the same level as GM or MMF. The graphical IDE is so ass backwards for game development that many developers eschew it all-together for everything but graphics development (if even that).

[Chris Whitman]

When I started, such things didn't exist, and I'm an old man who fears change.

But also both of the projects I'm working on now have very specific technical requirements, none of which are supported very well by existing game tools.

That said, I think if you can get away with it, you should use the fastest path to finished development possible, assuming that your goal is to actually make games and not just to produce code.

[mirosurabu]

Someone said something along these lines: Game Maker developers are more likely to create cheap/bad games.

I disagree with that. In fact, it's the other way around.

C++ developers are more likely to create bad games simply because their time is spent solving programming challenges rather than solving game design challenges.

Games are a lot more than just an engine.

[deathtotheweird]

http://db.tigsource.com/top?genre=&platform=&max-price=0

Check out the top freeware games on TIGdb. Most use gm/mmf/ags or rpg maker.

but it's good to see no one here is really bashing people for using such tools as I've seen in other threads/forums.

[ink.inc]

@Miroslav:

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Folks who use GM tend to be younger and more inexperienced when it comes to game development, simply because of GM's low barrier of entry. It's really the go-to tool for first time game devs (myself included). So naturally, for every playable GM game, there's maybe twenty that are fairly unpolished/broken.

Still, as a tool, GM is very solid, and a knowledgeable person can work wonders with it.  It's easy to use, and you can get something up and running in <30 minutes.

[mirosurabu]

Pretty good point. (:

[DedHedZed]

There probably doesn't need to be anything said in favour of game development programs, but I thought I'd weigh in on it anyway (That, and I didn't want my first post to be meaningless).

I'm using Construct, after previously using Multimedia Fusion 2 for about three years. I'm still yet to actually release anything, but that's not really through any 'lack' of anything (motivation, skill, etc), although I'm certainly not the best artist in the world. No, the main thing is that I've never made a game for other people. Game development programs are fun, and I like making engines, levels, even almost complete games, and just messing around with them for hours. It's like my own personal sandbox.

One day, I'll probably release something, but I find game development with tailored software to be incredibly personally relaxing, so I'm not sure I'll ever get enough 'energy' to just hit the 'upload' button to some website or other.

[Fallsburg]

I forget who said it, but the reason I no longer use a game dev editor is because it makes the easy stuff hard.  Gamemaker is a great tool for prototyping, but I feel that games can get very convoluted because of the way things have to be implemented. 
Personally, I like Python (pygame or Panda3d) or Flash for my prototyping.  Certainly, I find myself missing aspects of C++ from time to time, but the ease of use more than makes up for it.

[darthlupi]

Why aren't you using a game dev editor?

Well, I guess it's because I wanted to learn how to make a living off of game making.  I'm not saying that you cannot make money using Game Maker, or Unity.  I'm just saying that for me Flash had an already established market that isn't as daunting / do all it yourself as self promoting can be.

For me personally, it was easier to break into Flixel/Flash to make it viable, time wise, and  keep developing video games or move on to another hobby.  Sigh, if Game Maker's cross platform compiler was available to me directly, I would jump back over to the GM side of the universe in heart beat.

 

[dantheman363]

I like being able to get my hands into all the nitty, gritty details. I am currently using C# and there are plenty of details for me to wade around in.

[VomitOnLino]

I think it's been pretty much all said.

When I used game making tools the threshold to create something fun is much, much lower. Hence it's still very good for prototyping an idea, or bashing out a quick time-waster. That said - I have seen some formidable games made in GM or others. But some of their makers have let on that there was a lot of hacking around restrictions and/or hair pulling involved.

With programming you have/get to fuddle with all those little technical details, and if you add cross plattform to the stew I sometimes feel like crying. But, then again the major updraft is you get to do things your way, with your framework - which does what you want - efficiently. Also the path of getting there is very rewarding, and you get to hone your programming skills, too.

Also I'm probably kind of old and boneheaded and have a hard time getting script-like languages in that melon of mine. Flixel, AS3, Processing to name a few...

[Jetrel]

For me, it was because C++/OpenGL is an important job skill I need to master, and I'm not going to benefit from learning basic programming concepts by using a game-making kit, because I already know them (as a twenty-something who understands high-level interpreted languages pretty well).

I think that's a big factor in many people's plans.  I think there's an axis between:
Is programming your day job, and game making a means to get better  <------> or do you just want to make a game?

For me, I'm somewhere in the middle; maybe leaning towards the right, but I'm also just really insanely lucky to be working with a team member who is almost flatline on the far left of that axis; he's done much of the heavy-lifting in the engine, himself.  I probably couldn't justify making my own engine if I was doing this solo.