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[SundownKid]

yeah i guess, but "m-rated" isn't really the same as "mature". also in our society sex is seen as "for adults" whereas violence is all ages lol. so it's understandable.

It still doesn't make sense though, since puberty begins in early teens and you can't buy a video game with nudity in it until you're 21. That's a 10 year difference practically. M-rated games are 17 and up, but practically none of them have nudity, or if they do have partial nudity it causes a controversy.

That's not to say that sexual depictions will make a game mature, but something that's tastefully tied into the story is better than avoiding the subject completely. So many games have tons of violence but can't even say the word "sex" at all! You just think that it's normal because society tells you so, not because it is or has been?

[feminazi]

ask yourself why do you want sex in a game. if a person wants sex just because theyre getting worked up on freedom of speech, violence vs sex, pushing da boundaries, or whatever i don't think the person is mature enough to make anything beyond gta hot coffee. if youre asking how to mak sex mature well... thats like asking how to make shooting people in the face mature. unless youre planning to make spec ops: the sex game there's no real "design solution" to it. you can technically fix a few things like awkward npc interactions and dialogue trees and ai or whatever but ultimately its bad because of how devs think about subjects like sex and violence, and well, everything else. so uh, have sex in your game or dont, i doubt it's important, at all. i'll just skip through it or mute it (all hbo shows are terrible)

also if we're really talking about relationships and romance and we're for some reason using sex interchangebly then a big fat lol.

[jethrolarson]

I think one of the problems with relationships and sex in games is most of the time they're in games they're gamified. And reducing these things down to mechanics is kind of degrading. Like if you perform enough quests and grind rep you can get the girl. It makes it all very one-sided, and only superficial relationships are that way in real life.

I think there's still areas to explore. Maybe the game is a commentary on superficial relationships, casual sex, or prostitution. Also I think a game can have sex or be about sex without gamifying it.

Building relationships in Persona 4 somehow managed to not feel cheap. I'm guessing it's because doing so was always a sacrifice in regards to other goals, and they seemed to be careful about reducing it to a rep grind.

Another problem is that sex and relationships are complicated and gameplay systems are always reductive. If you look at social services as games then eharmony.com, okcupid.com, and ashleymadison.com are multiplayer sex/relationship games. AshleyMadison is very game-y actually. Could multiplayer sex games be worthy of more exploration?

[Blink]

I could swear I read somewhere that sex was not as big a thing in games because of collision detection. Having two 3D models as intertwined as that required really good collision detection, and we weren't at that point. It may have been about why we didn't have as many porn games as film has porn movies, and it could have been on Gamasutra, but I'm not finding it and honestly - I'm a bit worried to look too hard for this one. ;P Glad to see all the discussion on wanting more mature relationships in games though!

[Ego_Shiner]

i'd also say that probably also has something to do with the fact that you can film a porno on a budget of $10 and a pack of cheese strings whereas making a game that looks good enough to actually be a  bit arousing would require a massive team of paid artists and programmers

[nikki]

Maybe it's a subliminal thing.

Since the world is overpopulated the children need to be taught to kill, murder and destroy.
where sex would only lead to more people.


but then again.

for me playing the Sims is quite pornographic...
who needs graphic stuff when you can whoohoooo! the whole neighbourhood ?

[eyeliner]

Phantasmagoria done it, rather well, actually. An obvious but alluded to, rape scene. It was quite the stir in those days.

[jethrolarson]

@Blink I don't think sex is absent from games because of technical issues as you could just script everything or use traditional animation or even live action video. You'd probably be better off trying to depict sex via stylized animation anyway as it's going to be creepy as hell in the uncanny valley if you don't get it just right. Regardless you don't have to even depict sex to have it in a game. It could go off camera or even just be part of the narrative or character discussions.

[Trystin]

It seems like Sex is more a touchy subject for the younger minds opposed to violence, which is strange considering that they should both be equal in severity or lack there of. I want to add some sexual references in my game but I hold myself back thinking of who the game will be marketed to. I don't want to turn off youngsters if that's who picks up my game.

Its a hard subject, and I like this thread.

[gggfhfdh]

Im gay. Im really gasy. Im hyper gay

[Conker534]

Well I'm going to use cute girls that are half naked in my game.

I tried it before and got mixed responses, but you can't please everyone.

[gimymblert]

well can't wait till you put half naked cute boys

[s0]

Im really gasy.

me too

[Chromanoid]

@Blink I don't think sex is absent from games because of technical issues as you could just script everything or use traditional animation or even live action video. You'd probably be better off trying to depict sex via stylized animation anyway as it's going to be creepy as hell in the uncanny valley if you don't get it just right. Regardless you don't have to even depict sex to have it in a game. It could go off camera or even just be part of the narrative or character discussions.

i'd also say that probably also has something to do with the fact that you can film a porno on a budget of $10 and a pack of cheese strings whereas making a game that looks good enough to actually be a  bit arousing would require a massive team of paid artists and programmers

I think there are quite a lot low budget porn games out there. Second Life has masses of adult content (in the official store 199368 products are marked as adult). It is quite easy to do arousing stuff.

I think it has more to do with the revealing nature of video games. When watching a movie or reading a book you can hide your wishes because they don't matter. When you play a game you show your intents very clearly (to yourself and to others who might watch you playing the game). This can be embarrassing. (@OP: you mentioned this too )

[NickGlowsinDark]

I knew as soon as I saw the thread title that Katawa Shoujo would be a major topic in here, but I'm surprised that other games have been hardly mentioned.
I'll throw my own two pence in about KS:  everybody seems so focused on the disability thing, but what we were really discussing was how it approached sexual content.  Yeah, it was a little graphic, but with one minor exception (IMHO, anyways), it seemed like it was done extremely tastefully.  It wasn't a "sex game" so much as a game that happened to have some sex in it.  And the sex wasn't even a major part; you could completely disable the sexual scenes and still get the full experience.  Though I'd imagine that it would feel a little more fulfilling when played as it was intended.
There aren't many other games that include sex without making it the focus of the game.  I'm sure Mass Effect and Dragon Age are some of the first that will come to mind.  The romance parts were something that added to the story, but if it didn't happen, you didn't really feel like you were missing out.  And that's fine, because it wasn't what you were supposed to be focusing on.  It was just some added flavoring, to help you make your character feel more real.
In Fallout 2, you could get married, but it was such an inconvenience that I felt like the programmers threw it in as an afterthought.  It had no bearing on any other portion of the game, and that was a little disappointing.
I guess what it comes down to is how important it is to the plot, and how "romantic" it is.  If it's just sex for the sake of sex (unless that's the point of the game) it's probably going to feel out of place and unnatural.  If it's just an added bonus, but not really part of the plot, then you might also run the risk of it feeling out of place, but that's a pretty safe route to take.  The players can avoid it if it's something that makes them uncomfortable, or if they're just not interested in that aspect of the game.
Think about it: in real life, romance and sex are pretty important parts of our lives.  If they're in a game, and they don't feel proportionately important (say that ten times fast) the players are likely going to feel a little dissatisfied.

Also, @Blink, please tell me that the reference to the Gamasutra article and intertwined 3d models was an intentional pun.  You have to take credit for that kind of stuff.

[Muz]

In my opinion, yes. The problem is that you can't have a "cartoony" depiction of sex like you do violence.

Have you seen Oglaf? It pulls off "cartoony" sex just right. Just because 99% of depictions of sex are horrible, it doesn't make it completely unapproachable territory.

I think the problem is in maintaining the proper inspiration to do it right. Someone who is animating gore or violent scenes is rarely in a 'bloodthirsty' mood. But someone who is animating sex will fluctuate between being 'horny' and 'not in the mood'. Probably why women have done so much better than men at sex scenes is because they can at least remain constant.

And there are plenty of ways to do violence... shots, stabbing, slicing, explosions, fire, drowning, freezing, soul sucking. Sex is much more limited... lying down, standing, consensual, nonconsensual. Sex is rarely ever competitive (which is a major feature in games). I think part of what makes games like Sengoku Rance good is because they build the competitive element into it (even if it's with the distasteful theme of rape). Then again, it's not like there's any consensual violence outside of Saturday morning cartoons.

[ThemsAllTook]

But someone who is animating sex will fluctuate between being 'horny' and 'not in the mood'. Probably why women have done so much better than men at sex scenes is because they can at least remain constant.

Eh?

And there are plenty of ways to do violence... shots, stabbing, slicing, explosions, fire, drowning, freezing, soul sucking. Sex is much more limited... lying down, standing, consensual, nonconsensual. Sex is rarely ever competitive (which is a major feature in games).

Yeah, this is a tricky one. I've been thinking a lot about this lately due to discussions here and at GDC... I really can't come up with a way to mix gameplay with sex and come out with something that might be enjoyable. You'd probably have to make really heavy use of metaphor to make it work. Is it fun to have sex if there's the potential of failing at it? What would failure even mean, really? If you have to start over and try again if you mess up, it runs the risk of feeling like a chore. Sex is an oddball in that the enjoyment from it comes in the form of physical sensations and emotions, not so much from skillfully performing actions, which is normally what gameplay is about.

Lots of interesting stuff here. I really need to get around to playing Katawa Shoujo. Maybe tonight...

[rosholger]

But someone who is animating sex will fluctuate between being 'horny' and 'not in the mood'. Probably why women have done so much better than men at sex scenes is because they can at least remain constant.

wait what? women cant become horny from seeing sex? what are you talking about?
men and women are very similar you know, its more because women are not allowed to become horny from porn and similar things

[s0]

But someone who is animating sex will fluctuate between being 'horny' and 'not in the mood'. Probably why women have done so much better than men at sex scenes is because they can at least remain constant.

dum. i know several women who watch porn.

[Chromanoid]

Yeah, this is a tricky one. I've been thinking a lot about this lately due to discussions here and at GDC... I really can't come up with a way to mix gameplay with sex and come out with something that might be enjoyable. You'd probably have to make really heavy use of metaphor to make it work. Is it fun to have sex if there's the potential of failing at it? What would failure even mean, really? If you have to start over and try again if you mess up, it runs the risk of feeling like a chore. Sex is an oddball in that the enjoyment from it comes in the form of physical sensations and emotions, not so much from skillfully performing actions, which is normally what gameplay is about.

If it really interests you, you should check some games (just google w/o filter). Usually it is about exploration and objectification of women. There is so much cybersex stuff... The reward is usually audiovisual feedback. Most games I was honored to play are a little bit like easy versions of grow cube/visual puzzles. Doing this in a mild manner should work as well as with hardcore stuff. Isn't voyeurism very established in video games?

btw a recent game that was taken from steam greenlight
http://www.seducemegame.com/
This shows how risky it is to dedicate a game to sexual content (from a business standpoint). http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-09-05-no-sex-please-were-gamers

ps: a funny flash game from a female indie developer: http://www.ute-game.com/

pps: rythm games and minigame games (like warioware) are genres that should work very well with sexy content...