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[pottering]

[WARNING OFF-TOPIC MINI RANT]
re: duckburg, it was not the Disney company, Carl Barks was a true genius, heads above pretty much every char designer I can think of.

He is God tier, same as Kirby, Tezuka, (in other arts, Hitchcock, Le Corbusier) etc.

Since games still insist in being male teenage "not-art!" entertainment, until games leave those self-imposed limits I don't think you can put even Miyamoto on the same level as those guys. The field as whole brings down his achievements inside it.  
(Annnnd I was a Sega fanboy to start with, and I think many Nintendo games are OVERRATED *evil laugh*)

[gimymblert]

You can't put Miyamoto sure, but the unsung hero is Koizumi, miyamoto is basically hitchcock focusing only on the art structure through cheap and clever trick but awesome attention to details.

[pottering]

Problem is games sell themselves like fucking McDonalds (or Apple), "Oh look how popular all around the world it is! Oh look how much money it makes!", and downgrades Miyamoto or Koizumi to the same level as Jonathan Ive or the guy who invented Coca-Cola. 

You can sit a "Master of Cinema" (pardon the cliches) with a "Master of Comics" and a "Master of Painting" and they will have things to talk about their fields beyond technical proficiency and $$$.

What would Will Wright have to say to Kubrick about games?
What could Miyamoto say to Tezuka about games?
Positively, I mean.

I know some art games, of course, but ironically the "big guns" of gaming seem to despise those.

[pottering]

I should add than I think that this will change in the future, putting things in a better context, but currently...

Many comics artists were ashamed of comics too, took a while to grow some pride.

edit since I am ranting already:
gaemgaters and the like talk big like they have pride in gaming, but it is the exactly opposite, they are ashamed and don't want mainstream attention (and the analysis that comes with it) to "their hobby"

[gimymblert]

Hideo Kojima has plenty stuff to say, as much as that silent hill guys who art direct the 1&2

[pottering]

I put those guys (and many others like Carmack, Wright) in the Neil Gaiman level, "Great" maybe, but not even close to God level like Jack Kirby or Tezuka, IMO. 

I mean, if Kojima said "X is crap" would it even change your perception of X or anything? Would you even bother checking why? Would even bother clicking a link with that?

[J-Snake]

If Kojima says Metal Gear controls are great, I will say they are crap. Because they are.

[gimymblert]

@pottering
Well kojima is the awkward mix as his genius is able to go through the pop culture reference and homage ... but I wonder if that does not make your position about snobism, when he talk about movie, he say very interesting and pertinent things even though those movie you could see them as shit, and in fact it nurture his discourse and man the guy got it right with mgs2 (today it would be pretty "meh captain obvious" but back in the day internet wasn't what it is today) All of that through B tiers movies (the whole reflexion about the place of the main character and public relation and how it relates to culture and identification in the face of the information ages). I mean how do you infer that from a bunch of action movies? that's just brilliant. It was way before anonymous and gamergate and it was already a deconstruction of something that hadn't happened yet.

Meanwhile Sato http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4283/the_dust_of_everyday_life_the_art_.php?print=1
Is high in the high brow conception of arts, he is totally legit.

I think you are just looking for hero and taste maker, you are not looking at the art itselfs at the expression.

[gimymblert]

Goddamn darks souls 3 leaked 

[J-Snake]

btw. the core message in Metal Gear Solids is to follow values, regardless what is true and what is not. I guess not everyone will get this message.

[gimymblert]

You have never met the mgs scene seriously, people are trying to out mindblown each other

[J-Snake]

Oh, I am gladly departing from scenes who are making out more nonsense than the actual developer does;)

[gimymblert]

I'm all for this high level nonsense

http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/

http://www.metalgearinformer.com/?p=16343

http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS2/DOTM_TOC.htm

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/119836/Analysis_How_Metal_Gear_Solid_Teaches_Us_About_Technological_Anxiety.php

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/dreaming-in-an-empty-room-a-defense-of-metal-gear-solid-2.114147999/





Not all has the same quality but god!

[pottering]

[edit: @Jimym GIMBERT, if not obvious enough]

I see how it can be seen as snobism, especially when talking in terms like "levels", "tiers", and X being greater than Y. Just tried to keep it simple, but I chose the wrong words.

Not looking for "heroes", quite the opposite, trying to put Gaming's Heroes in perspective.

[gimymblert]

It's true we have few authors and the one we have are quite limited

@Future

[SirNiko]

Why bother to put them in perspective? Be happy with whatever contributions they make to media, even if they're small ones in comparison.

[pottering]

I see what you mean, now that I think about it, there are quite a number game devs that I can see building a (to reuse my own crappy cliche)"god tier" body of work throughout the years.  

I guess an "absence" is just a chance for someone to fill it.

[Pfotegeist]

I thought up something. In movies I might try to relate to any character.  In games with a main character I am forced to relate to that main character every time in order to accomplish whatever the game has in mind.

People making claims they relate to geniuses and action heroes portrayed in movies seems over-optimistic.  When the genius goes on a rampage and seems revolting, it would also be a cautionary tale about staying humble.

I would likewise have to question how someone would learn to behave like a captive in video games when they've been spending the last 30 minutes to a week performing heroic deeds rescuing that captive.  Falling down a pit 1000 times proves it could be fatal, none the less you glean some experience from it.

When you saved the helpless animals from Dr. Robotnik, did you feel like you were becoming slightly more helpless? No. Of course not.  Worst case scenario, you empathized with them and went vegan without considering your own health.  Did you feel like rolling into a ball going mach speed and banging against a metal drum to save the animals (and the bunnies)? Maybe, who am I to judge that?  You'll soon find out it won't work, your parents aren't going to get you that super sonic cannon, and the bunnies will sometimes save themselves.

[ProgramGamer]

I thought up something. In movies I might try to relate to any character.  In games with a main character I am forced to relate to that main character every time in order to accomplish whatever the game has in mind.

People making claims they relate to geniuses and action heroes portrayed in movies seems over-optimistic.  When the genius goes on a rampage and seems revolting, it would also be a cautionary tale about staying humble.

I would likewise have to question how someone would learn to behave like a captive in video games when they've been spending the last 30 minutes to a week performing heroic deeds rescuing that captive.  Falling down a pit 1000 times proves it could be fatal, none the less you glean some experience from it.

When you saved the helpless animals from Dr. Robotnik, did you feel like you were becoming slightly more helpless? No. Of course not.  Worst case scenario, you empathized with them and went vegan without considering your own health.  Did you feel like rolling into a ball going mach speed and banging against a metal drum to save the animals (and the bunnies)? Maybe, who am I to judge that?  You'll soon find out it won't work, your parents aren't going to get you that super sonic cannon, and the bunnies will sometimes save themselves.

What the hell is your point?

[Torchkas]

That there are no games (to his knowledge) that allow you to voluntarily choose what character you can be the most empathetic with.
I don't know if I agree with the sentiment that "relation to a character" is an assured case for every spectator. I say spectator because I don't even think that relating to characters is a mandatory thing in movies. If you think that all of your character's actions need to be relatable, then you're not a good writer. You'd never be able to write a psychopath.
I guess that empathy does usually come around when you spend a long time with a character though. As long as it's at least clear what the morals of that character are. You don't have to be the character in order to empathize with them.

Relation and empathy are different things in my opinion.