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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Lol, I totally know where you're coming from on this one (even if I wouldn't put it quite so starkly myself) and the whole emphasis on "do these specific things" is something I'm keen to avoid. I'm more interested in what the particular Bible passage in question shows us about what God is like and what practical implications that has for day-to-day living - without presupposing the particular worldview of the player (e.g. I can say to you "1 Samuel 8 describes a God who is like X" without assuming that you either believe in God or believe that the Bible is true - that doesn't somehow magically change the contents of 1 Samuel 8!)

But I'm curious as to why you've immediately leapt to the conclusion that I'm targeting children? What made you think that?

sorry for the delay in my reply. i assumed that most 'educational' games are targeted at children. if that's not the case, then nevermind. it's hard to convert an adult to a religion, it's easy to convert a child, because their rational facilities aren't yet mature, so it's particularly troubling that most religious stuff is targeted towards children -- if this is intended for adults, great, there should be no problem.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

since we're on the subject of religion, i invite everyone interested to watch this video:





and that documentary in general

[Super Joe]

hey is this thread 5 pages because of a "lot" of militant atheists or do yall love vible games

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think making a game to basically convert people to (aka "educate" people about) christianity is a lot more militant than talking about said game -- it's not like any of us atheists are making games trying to convert people to atheism

[Super Joe]

if you play a video game and it funamentally alters your beliefs then basically you deserve whatever dumb shit it thrust upon you

[andygeers]

if you play a video game and it funamentally alters your beliefs then basically you deserve whatever dumb shit it thrust upon you

Lol, it's a sad state of affairs if computer games can't ever cause us to think!

An example of a non-religious game designed to cause people to think (and maybe even alter their beliefs) which I must confess I've never played (but it sounds great!) is Super Columbine Massacre RPG

[Angelo]

if you play a video game and it funamentally alters your beliefs then basically you deserve whatever dumb shit it thrust upon you

I agree. People even listen to fairytales and it fundamentally alters their beliefs. It's a matter of how it is presented to them and how susceptible they are.

[Super Joe]

if you play a video game and it funamentally alters your beliefs then basically you deserve whatever dumb shit it thrust upon you

Lol, it's a sad state of affairs if computer games can't ever cause us to think!

An example of a non-religious game designed to cause people to think (and maybe even alter their beliefs) which I must confess I've never played (but it sounds great!) is Super Columbine Massacre RPG

lol

[Angelo]

Lol, it's a sad state of affairs if computer games can't ever cause us to think!

An example of a non-religious game designed to cause people to think (and maybe even alter their beliefs) which I must confess I've never played (but it sounds great!) is Super Columbine Massacre RPG

Columbine Massacre = Event within our lifetime that affected people which are still alive and reachable, doesn't involve supernatural powers and the visual evidence alone proved it actually happened.

Religion = Not quite the same.

[Cthulhu32]

if you play a video game and it funamentally alters your beliefs then basically you deserve whatever dumb shit it thrust upon you

Jesus, this is the deepest post I've ever seen Super Joe put on the boards.

Also as this conversation has turned into believing the Old Testament, I'm definitely out. Derek, Alex, Pencerkoff, Oddball, and Paul made some really strong arguments and points for making cool bible games, but this is very very quickly turning into a bizarre conversation about how dinosaurs are not real, angels are real, and how the world is flat.. !_! I'm very glad to see that there were some very serious conversations about how you can take something interesting like old stories from a culture dating thousands of years and make it into something thought provoking. But now it is getting silly.

[Super Joe]

Lol, it's a sad state of affairs if computer games can't ever cause us to think!

An example of a non-religious game designed to cause people to think (and maybe even alter their beliefs) which I must confess I've never played (but it sounds great!) is Super Columbine Massacre RPG

Columbine Massacre = Event within our lifetime that affected people which are still alive and reachable, doesn't involve supernatural powers and the visual evidence alone proved it actually happened.

Religion = Not quite the same.

ugh you're awful stop it

[ben2theedge]

i think making a game to basically convert people to (aka "educate" people about) christianity is a lot more militant than talking about said game -- it's not like any of us atheists are making games trying to convert people to atheism

No, putting a gun to someone's head or threatening their family is militant. Making a game that can be played voluntarily and the moral/theological implications of which can be freely contemplated by the user is the opposite of militant. Good lord. Using language like this serves no purpose except to ignite tempers.

[Super Joe]

whats all this about the old testament. does this weirdo ascribe to the crazier shit in there or what. paul was a SORRY ACCIDENTALLY USED THE F WORD HERE

[Angelo]

i think making a game to basically convert people to (aka "educate" people about) christianity is a lot more militant than talking about said game -- it's not like any of us atheists are making games trying to convert people to atheism

No, putting a gun to someone's head or threatening their family is militant. Making a game that can be played voluntarily and the moral/theological implications of which can be freely contemplated by the user is the opposite of militant. Good lord. Using language like this serves no purpose except to ignite tempers.

In the context of our discussion, the term "militant" doesn't literally mean using military means (such as guns) to threaten people to adopt one's beliefs, but simply taking an active stance promoting those beliefs.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yes, militant can be read as being an extremist or die-hard activist for something. i hate to quote dictionaries, but:

2 : aggressively active (as in a cause) : combative <militant conservationists> <a militant attitude>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/militant

[Angelo]

yes, militant can be read as being an extremist or die-hard activist for something. i hate to quote dictionaries, but:

2 : aggressively active (as in a cause) : combative <militant conservationists> <a militant attitude>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/militant

I know it generally has that meaning, that's why I started with "in the context of our discussion".

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yes, i was replying to ben, and agreeing with you

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

sorry for the delay in my reply. i assumed that most 'educational' games are targeted at children. if that's not the case, then nevermind. it's hard to convert an adult to a religion, it's easy to convert a child, because their rational facilities aren't yet mature, so it's particularly troubling that most religious stuff is targeted towards children -- if this is intended for adults, great, there should be no problem.

Having worked with children, I can tell you that any parent that takes even a small amount of interest in their kid's lives will have effectively converted them to their religion.  No teacher, camp counselor, or anybody can compare to family when it comes to that sort of thing.

I have no idea how it holds up to statistics, but I always imagined the the most "converted" age group was post-college (like 22-26).  Kids generally follow their parents until they are set free in college, only to realize when they are on their own the true value of that way of life, and return to church, synagogue or whatever.

The "hook 'em early" concept may be true of Christianity, but everyone grows up and has to deal with it then.  The biggest part of Christianity is the fact that you have to choose to be for or against eventually...

-PENCERKOFF

[Matt Thorson]

That probably relates to this quote:

If your goal is conversion .. it would be very unwise to target any audience other than children, would it not?

I'd assume your "conversion rate" would be much higher among children than adults, just like is the case with other Christian media and events ("Jesus camps" target exclusively children as far as I know).

The problem with this argument is that it assumes that the best way to convert someone is to brainwash them, since surely few people of sound mind would ever choose to become a Christian in later life? It also assumes that raw numbers is my metric for success. But Jesus taught in the parable of the sower that the success rates for the spread of the word will be pretty low (lots of the sower's seeds fall on rocky ground or the birds snatch it away or it just fails to grow) but that's ok! My job is just to be faithful in my task of explaining the Bible in an understandable and engaging way, perhaps clearing out obstacles that prevent people listening where appropriate, but never to try and "force" that person to believe what they read. That's between them and God, and I trust God to take care of himself in that fight.

I tried my best not to imply that converting children is tantamount to brainwashing (which I do believe (baptizing children before they can even comprehend abstract concepts gets me especially riled up) but that's irrelevant). 

No matter how moral or immoral it is, you're going to convert more people if your game targets children.  That's just the way it is and I know it isn't a contest, but if you can reach more people with your art, why not?  Children tend to be more open to this kind of thing, usually because they don't yet know who they really are, and are looking for a way to define themselves.

From my point of view, stepping in at that time in a child's life is underhanded/brainwashing/etc.  But from a Christian's point of view, why not?  If Christianity really is the one and only right way to live, then you're doing those children a favor by swooping in and showing them how they can define themselves as Christian.

So from a pure "I want to convert lots of people" point of view, you'd have to be crazy not to target children is I guess my point.  I can understand how you wouldn't be concerned with how many people you convert, as long as the game helps someone (the same way I'm not concerned if my games get a million downloads, as long as a few people enjoy it), but given the choice between converting one person and converting 100, it isn't a sin to pick the 100 (if I had a choice between my game reaching 100 people vs. 1, I'd pick 100, especially if those peoples' immortal souls depended on it).

And I still think that your end goal is conversion.  You explain it in a very passive way, but you genuinely believe that if you introduce people to God, God will finish the work.  So you are trying to convert people by introducing them to God.  If you didn't believe that God will finish the job, you'd be taking that extra step.

[andygeers]

So from a pure "I want to convert lots of people" point of view, you'd have to be crazy not to target children is I guess my point.

I totally get where you're coming from on this, and apart from the morality of what you're proposing I suppose in one sense you're right. I guess maybe it's just my particular background and vision that mean I'm not really interested in the "easy pickings" of impressionable children - I'm much more interested in rationally engaging with thoughtful adults/teenagers, and sufficiently persuaded of the intellectual merits of a Biblical worldview that I believe it stands up to scrutiny.

Anyway, I'm definitely increasingly convinced that I need to prioritise making a trailer to demonstrate what on earth I mean by all this talk.