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great, still looking forward to it, even though I have no idea what the game will be about besides hats

[Alex May]

Haha 'sold out' jesus. Yeah fish, you sellout!!

[Bennett]

In general it seems there is a backlash towards anything indie that is released on anything but the PC. It's a bit of a shame, but it's understandable given that the PC is where most indie content resides.

I don't think there is a backlash against games that are initially announced as being XBLA-only or PSN-only. There's been no backlash against pixeljunk games or bit.trip games, for example.

I know with Fez, the platform couldn't be announced until the deal had been made, but the hype train has been rolling for quite a long time now, and it was demonstrated running on a PC at GDC, so you can't blame people for getting their hopes up.

Now, I don't blame the Polytron guys for announcing the game earlier since they were going for the IGF prize. I don't think they're doing anything wrong or bad. But it's unfortunate because the circumstances are forcing them to act in a way which will basically antagonize a lot of people needlessly. Polytron hasn't 'sold out' or anything like that but I also don't think that people have no grounds for complaint.

The basic problem is that there's a disconnect between the grassroots indie hype system (including the forums, the IGF, and the blogs) and the legal requirements of working with a big corporation like Sony or Microsoft. You can't look after your grassroots fans if you have to worry about NDAs and other business or legal issues.

Indie is all about community involvement. You write a game, and I'll blog it and tweet it and tell my friends about it (and buy it!), and then I write a game and you do the same for me. You let other indies in on what's going on with you, and they do the same. It's not the same one-way street, closed-door scenario that you have in commercial game development, it's a community of peers. When people express anger in these situations, it's not because they're being stupid or selfish (well, sometimes it is), it's because you're not holding up your end of the deal; you're turning them into a mere customer instead of a peer. Notice how there's anger on the indie blogs, but there's no anger on the mainstream blogs like Destructoid.

That's why PC is a good indie platform, and iPhone and Flash are good indie platforms, but consoles do not tend to be good even when the devkits are cheap/free, and there is broad access to the distribution channel. Indies depend on alternative marketing, mostly community-based channels and word-of-mouth, so you absolutely need to be able to publish news frequently to maintain interest and good will.

I think Bob Pelloni has recently found this out the hard way, since his fanbase has totally evaporated since he went into media-silence (check his dead forum!). He may as well have skipped his viral advertising campaign, since he wasn't able to follow through in a timely manner. Maybe he's just gone silent for no reason, but even in the best case scenario, where he got permission to put his game out for the DS, he was going to be forced to stop talking to his fans until all the deals were done and the contracts were in place.

[Alec]

I'm surprised at all the short-sighted bitching, frankly.

Fish has been posting little screenshots of the game on twitpic once a week for a while now, which is more than I expect to see from this game at this stage.

The game will be great. Just relax and have a little faith - at least you're not the one that has to go broke to finish it.

[Bennett]

I'm surprised at all the short-sighted bitching, frankly.

On the one hand I agree, but I think that behind all the claims of selling out, and the short-sighted bitching, there is an emotion which isn't completely unreasonable given the circumstances. As I said, I don't think PT have done anything wrong, I just think dealing with MS creates a bit of an unsolvable problem in this regard.

Fish has been posting little screenshots of the game on twitpic once a week for a while now, which is more than I expect to see from this game at this stage.

But that's exactly the point - they're promoting it like an indie game, and developing it like an indie game, and they're part of the community of indie developers, but the legal/business constraints are causing problems. It will probably be all worth it in terms of breakthrough with mainstream audiences, but it's going to cause some anger amongst the indie community, and I'm not sure that 'shut up and stop bitching' is really a fair response.

[Alec]

But that's exactly the point - they're promoting it like an indie game, and developing it like an indie game, and they're part of the community of indie developers, but the legal/business constraints are causing problems.

I'm not sure what legal/business constraints you're assuming exactly, other than perceived exclusivity.

My response isn't "shut up and stop bitching" its more like "realize how ignorant a lot of you sound". Everyone's free to bitch as much as they want, I'm just surprised to see that people are so limited in their imagination that they'd resort to assuming Phil is trying to make a fast buck or trying to screw them over.

I mean, can you actually imagine what its like to be a dev going broke trying to get your game done? Everyone assumes that its a given that Fez will sell a bajillion copies on whatever platform its released on, but that's not what it feels like when you're the developer of the game. Its actually really frightening - you have no idea whether you're going to break even or not. Of course you'd want it to be a big hit when it comes out. I'm not saying that removes developers from criticism, but I thought this community was better at relating to / understanding developers.

I also take some offense at the notion that indie developers *HAVE* to release content from their games at a regular rate or fans will abandon them. I don't think that's true at all. If the game is good enough, the fans will come back when the game is out. Some developers don't want to ruin the surprises in their game, and will be more private about sharing information. I can totally respect that. I know I'm not going to be like "fuck FEZ!" just because I had to wait a couple years for them to finish it properly. From hanging out with Phil and Renaud in Montreal, I know they're going to spend the time and effort to make the game as good as they can. I'd rather they did that than rush the release out. I also don't want them to go broke - because I'd like to see what else they can make if they have the opportunity to make another big game after this.

[Don Andy]

But without the bitching the whole marketing thing wouldn't work so well.

[Alec]

But without the bitching the whole marketing thing wouldn't work so well.

This is also very true.

[Movius]

Indie is all about community involvement.

(I'm being extremely bold here and assuming that you are using 'indie' as an abbreviation for independent.)

You aren't the first or only person to say this. But, do you people even read what you write or understand the words you are typing?

Lets consult a dictionary. (source = http://en.wiktionary.org )

Independent - not dependent; not contingent or depending on something else; free

Community - Group of people sharing a common understanding who reveal themselves by using the same language, manners, tradition and law. or The condition of having certain attitudes and interests in common.

[kyn]

Nice to know we can always count on the dictionary to settle arguments

[Bennett]

@Movius - I'm not going to get into a Paul Eres-style derailment, but 'indie', as all of us know, refers to games which are independent of mainstream publishers, funding and press. It is not about being indpendent of everything.  

they'd resort to assuming Phil is trying to make a fast buck or trying to screw them over.

If that's what people are assuming, then I agree it's stupid, but I don't actually think that's where the anger is coming from. The anger comes from the 'look but don't touch' aspect, is my guess.

also take some offense at the notion that indie developers *HAVE* to release content from their games at a regular rate or fans will abandon them. I don't think that's true at all.

I understand what you're saying here, but I'm just trying to say this: if you want legions of unpaid indie fans to proselytize your game, you have to give something in return. If you don't want or need their help - fine - but I think when you post a devlog here, the assumption is that you do. You don't have to put out content or screenshots, but you also don't have to be all like 'it's a mystery if you'll ever get to play this'.

which brings me to this:

I'm not sure what legal/business constraints you're assuming exactly, other than perceived exclusivity.

I'm only assuming that they're not at liberty to say if it's ever coming out for the PC, because I don't think fish is an asshole, and it would be an asshole maneuver to act all mysterious about it unless you absolutely had to.

For my 2 cents, I think they should do whatever makes the best business sense, so they can survive and make more great games. If that's to make an XBLA exclusive, then great.

[jstckr]

So it has been settled. Phil Fish will be admonished from TIGSource Village for disappointing the ideals of the self-proclaimed leaders of the Mob Idiocy Party.
Go live in the woods you corporate fuck!


What has been edited?
"leader" has been turned into "leaders". It was a typo that caused uproar.

[Bennett]

So it has been settled. Phil Fish will be admonished from TIGSource Village for disappointing the ideals of the self-proclaimed leader of the Mob Idiocy Party.
Go live in the woods you corporate fuck!

What? I don't think you understood my post, since I'm not admonishing anyone or disappointed in anything. Take a breath.

[shig]

once i dreamed that, in an internet debate, forumers replied to my posts and not a ridiculously simplified straw man version them.


craziest dream i've ever had

[Bennett]

It's my fault for making posts that take up multiple lines. Nobody wants to read all multiple lines!

[Guert]

The funniest part of this thread is that, overall, Fish only said the following information:

Fez on Xbox live in 2010. Polytron couldn't talk about it before today because of standard legal agreements.

That's it. And then 4 pages later people are discussing about PC vs Console releases. First thing's first. The game is going to be released in 2010. The game isn't finished at all, there's still at least 6 months before the release. A lot can happen in 6 months. Second, Fish talked about a deal, not all the entire business plan of Polytron for the rest of the company's existence..

So, there are some good points raised in this thread but, they would feel a lot more valid in a proper thread. Like a "Console vs PC vs Web releases. What's best for indies?" in the business section. Anyone really interesting in discussing that topic, go ahead, start the thread.

In retrospect, all I gotta say is that Fish has the right twist to get attention. He's the indie Blizzard He drops a few words about a game coming out next year, add a very simple yet charming pixel art image and BAM! People mass and extrapolate to all kinds of levels. Then they get in heated discussion about something that is simply a supposition.

So, congratulation Fish and the Polytron crew! Can't wait to see what you guys are gonna do next

[Alec]

So, there are some good points raised in this thread but, they would feel a lot more valid in a proper thread. Like a "Console vs PC vs Web releases. What's best for indies?" in the business section. Anyone really interesting in discussing that topic, go ahead, start the thread.

That'd be an interesting thread.

Although really, the bottom line is indie games on consoles sell way better than on PC/Mac. I know for myself, I'd like to be able to do both.

[Bennett]

So, there are some good points raised in this thread but, they would feel a lot more valid in a proper thread. Like a "Console vs PC vs Web releases. What's best for indies?" in the business section.

To be fair (i.e. to me) what we are actually discussing is this question: Are the people who are angry about this announcement simply idiots, or is there is a more charitable way to understand their feelings? I think that discussion belongs here, since this is where the announcement is at.

Nothing I'm saying depends on the supposition that there will be no PC release - just on the fact that they're dodging questions about it (probably because they have to). Guert, if you're right that this is just an attention-getting technique, I think it's a pretty unwise one. But I don't think it is.

[Corpus]

It's good news you turds. Be happy.

Also, any 'good points' raised in this thread have already been raised and resolved multiple times over the last couple of years.

Here's another good point: I have a sneaking suspicion that slavery might not actually be cool.

[Bennett]

I actually am happy about it, like I keep on saying.