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[Michaël Samyn]

Those of who were shy about participating in a peaceful game where everybody's nice might be interested in the additions that we will be adding to The Endless Forest throughout the month of October. More info here.

Check out these before & after shots:



Mwahahahahah! 

[sharksweetheart]

.

[Guert]

Oh and btw Johny, please introduce yourself properly or you will be breaking the 

DON'T ADVERTISE YOUR GAME rule

And that rule is sacred...

[Michaël Samyn]

I'm fascinated by rules! And I'm very fond of the sacred.

But I was advertising our game, though, sort of. Why is that bad?

Anyway: hi, my name is Michaël Samyn. I've been developing games -or trying too, against many odds- with my partner Auriea Harvey as Tale of Tales. Before this we made web-based art and design as Entropy8Zuper! We're sort of aliens in the industry because our background is in the arts and not in programming. So we tend to get in trouble with other game designers about every time we open our mouths. There's a lot of things that we like about games but the things we tend to like the least is that they are games. So we try to make games that downplay all those cumbersome things like goals and rules and scores. Somebody has to do it. Some people like the results. Others don't. As to be expected.

[Alec]

We're sort of aliens in the industry because our background is in the arts and not in programming. So we tend to get in trouble with other game designers about every time we open our mouths.

You also have referred to people as being part of an "abomination".

I wonder if that makes you guys more likable or not.


Also: Welcome! 

[Golds]

Those of who were shy about participating in a peaceful game where everybody's nice might be interested in the additions that we will be adding to The Endless Forest throughout the month of October.

When I read this, I see: "Hey guys, our game isn't violent so you must not like it because you have no taste. but look, I'm doing a halloween promotion!"

Endless Forest looks interesting, and I'm intrigued to play your IGF entry, but the attitude you're projecting is aloof and is certainly not winning you friends.

TIGs is a community with people from a wide variety of backgrounds, and if you drop the 'artiste' demeanor, I'm sure you'll get a lot of good feedback,

[Guert]

Hello there!
I've played Endless forest numerous times and I've been following your work for a while. Still, dropping in a forum without properly introducing yourself simply to boost your work is weak. Besides, you'll get alot more attention if you post a bit befoe you show your stuff But, you know, so many forums allow this so it's not entirely your fault

Also, if you'd have looked around the boards a bit, you would have found that Endless forest is part of the "Beginner's guide to indie gaming".

Anyway, it's nice to meet you and I wish we can discuss about various topics over these boards.

Take care and talk to you later!
Guert

[Michaël Samyn]

You also have referred to people as being part of an "abomination".

Sounds cool.  :D
Did we really say that? In what context? Which people?

[Michaël Samyn]

Endless Forest looks interesting, and I'm intrigued to play your IGF entry, but the attitude you're projecting is aloof and is certainly not winning you friends.

Do we need friends for something?

TIGs is a community with people from a wide variety of backgrounds, and if you drop the 'artiste' demeanor, I'm sure you'll get a lot of good feedback,

I'd rather be judged on the quality of our work than the quality of our demeanor.

[Michaël Samyn]

I see some kind of reputation has preceeded us. I was truly not aware of that. I guess that says a lot about my social skills. 

This strikes a sensitive nerve, though. We are not particularly fond of being part of some club. But it does seem like it is necessary to be friends with the right people. Even in a less formal environment like indy games. And it seems like the fact that we're not particularly interested in that, will ultimately mean that our work does not get the recognition we think it deserves.

I'm not fighting against this. I think it is perfectly natural for a humans to like the work of their friends better than that of others. And maybe I should work harder in the social sphere.

It's just that, well, we are giving all that we have to give through our work. That is where we are friendly, where we are generous (and where we make friends). Outside of the work, I feel that whatever we say is futile, and to a large extent irrelevant. I frankly don't know what I'm saying half of the time. And I'm certainly not the best informed of people. But the work is there. It says it all, as far as I'm concerned. This is how we communicate with the world.

[Tr00jg]

Do we need friends for something?

I'd rather be judged on the quality of our work than the quality of our demeanor.

1) Yes.

2) Attitude is everything.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

If it helps, I consider Michael and Auriea friends.

It's true they don't really like rules, and goals, and violence, and 2D, and challenge, and gameplay, and plot, and 95% of the games I like, and call anyone who likes those things names, and are generally pessimistic about humanity, but I see those as just interesting quirks and agree with them a lot of the time after I think it over (I'm not being sarcastic anywhere).

I think good will between independent game developers should be unconditional. I also like the amazingly self-absorbed MDickie and that wacky guy in the Game Maker community who makes those constantly-being-released Johnny games and those people on the indiegamer.com boards who make games primarily for money. Those are just minor differences compared to the basic similarity of what we do.

[Eden]

Mm, Michael and Auriea are cool. I consider them friends, too. (I don't know Auriea that well, though.)

Anyway, I don't see Michael's attitude as aloof.

[Alec]

This strikes a sensitive nerve, though. We are not particularly fond of being part of some club. But it does seem like it is necessary to be friends with the right people.

Well, this forum is a part of a community. So in a way, it is kind of like a club. I think this is why you don't "understand" the whole introduce yourself before spamming your game rule. Generally communities are about people as well as their work.

Also I don't get what "But it does seem like it is necessary to be friends with the right people" is supposed to mean. Its almost like you love making/having enemies, and you're annoyed that in some cases having friends is a good thing - or that you're implying that people are friends just for business reasons. Both seem negative to me.

"Abomination" is referring this deleted post which preemptively offers excuses for why "The Path" might not get nominated at IGF. Now you've used this "I don't give a FUCK" kind of attitude to explain why you and your company say incendiary things from time to time, but then why delete posts if you really "don't care"? (or, for that matter, if you really do care about what you're proposing)

I guess I'm just confused as to why you seem so bitter about your games. Admittedly, I could be totally wrong to have this impression, which is why I'm bringing it up. I'm curious where you guys are coming from.

I think generally the vibe here is we enjoy making games and we enjoy one another's company. I personally feel that indies will have more influence if we work together and support each other. That doesn't mean pandering to each other, but it does imply a certain level of mutual respect between developers.

Anyway you've said this:

we are giving all that we have to give through our work. That is where we are friendly, where we are generous (and where we make friends). Outside of the work, I feel that whatever we say is futile, and to a large extent irrelevant. I frankly don't know what I'm saying half of the time. And I'm certainly not the best informed of people. But the work is there. It says it all, as far as I'm concerned. This is how we communicate with the world.

Which explains something...

Anyways, I promise to stop thinking about it... riiiight... now.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Well, that was Auriea, not Michael. I think she called it an abomination because it had like 2 females out of 40 judges, which is a lower proportion of male to female than females who actually work in the industry (either the mainstream or the independent one). I don't think she had anything against the 38 males in particular, just the selection process that ended up with that proportion.

[jeb]

I think you should create a new thread about your game in the feedback category and try a little false modesty. Don't assume we know who you are or what your game is about, and you'll be off for a much better start.

[Alec]

re: rinkuhero

Yeah, I realize it was the other half the team. :]

But... I'm picking up similar vibes from both folks, which is why I felt I had to mention it. I'm also curious why the post was deleted.

I think that if there were more women who were involved in indie games and willing to judge, they would be in there. I'm sure the organizers would love to see more female judges.

But even then, I think its the people more than the gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation that matters in the end. I don't believe that all men are only into violent games.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I agree with you actually. But I also think she had an important point: the market for independent games in general is primarily female. That's one of the big factors separating the mainstream games from independent games, that there's more females playing independent games (probably for a number of reasons). Even my own tower defense game, which is composed of blasting and shooting, had a lot of females buying it.

Yet despite that, many parts of the indie games community are dominated by males, IGF being one. Just look at this forum for instance, I've been absent for awhile, but I don't remember seeing a single female member of this forum. Maybe there are a few more now.

I don't think it's necessarily our fault that females tend to play and enjoy the games, and a lot of them make the games, and yet are absent in the forums and in the IGF panel. There's no male conspiracy. But I can understand how I'd feel if I were a female, making games primarily played by other females, and had to compete in a contest with 38/40 male judges.

And of course male judges don't like exclusively male games, but there is still some real psychological differences between the sexes. How many males read romance novels for instance? How many of them look down on them? If I were entering a romance novel in a contest for novelists with virtually all male judges, I'd worry.

So I think it's wrong to think the IGF does it on purpose, but it's still understandable to be upset about it.

[Shaheen]

I agree with you actually. But I also think she had an important point: the market for independent games in general is primarily female.

Wait. How are independent games specifically appealing to women? I could understand that, perhaps, it may appeal more than mainstream games because it's a more open market for ideas (and such) which may allow for less obviously male-dominated games, but reading "the market for independent games in general is primarily female." doesn't sit right considering the male presence over female in the scene, as far as I'm aware.

Or is this including casual games? In which case, I'm still confused. Where's a source for numbers on this?

On-topic: The game concept seems interesting, though would possibly strike me as boring after a while. I assure you, that's definitely not due to the lack of a scoring or goal system!

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I don't really know why more the audience of independent games is more female than the audience of mainstream games, I've heard a lot of different explanations for it. That independent games tend to be more quirky and original and females go for that, that they tend to be 2D (females get motion sickness from 3D games more than males do), that females often don't care about the latest and greatest computer, that females are often looking for short game experiences rather than dedicating hours and hours to learning a single game, etc. -- all or none of those could be true.

I was grouping most casual with independent, yeah. Most casual games are also independent games, at least by the criteria of entry in the IGF (no third party publishing money and so on).

The source for the numbers is many places really. Portal sales numbers (I know portals are horrible, but still). My own numbers that I see buying my game. Just the people I know, of the females I know who play games, they tend to play independent games and not mainstream games. That a lot of the people I see making independent games are female. I know that's a small sample. And it varies by the game. But I still think it's true that independent games are played by females more than males, in general.

Some of the most popular independent games have a mainly female audience -- Aveyond for example, or the games on hanakogames.com; even this game (Endless Forest) I think has a primarily female user base, and it's not an insignificant game, it has tens of thousands of users. Dofus, a fairly big but still independent MMORPG (it won an IGF award awhile back), also seemed to have a primarily female player base when I was into that game. I also read once that the average player of flash games on those flash games sites is something like 60% female. I think it may seem otherwise if you only hang around the TIGSource and indygamer type of thing, but that really is only a small part of the independent games community.